my question: why was the convenient store manager calling the cops... they think you'd already started stealing from them?

TINLA and IANAL and all... but I wonder what good recognizing the store as a bailee would do you if someone walked off with your bag; I suspect it wouldn't do much for you.

When I read stuff like this it just makes me think you are a nutter looking for a fight. All this legal mumbo-jumbo really makes you seem like a crackpot, and I now question what kind of attitude you take with people in stores when dealing with them. I'd venture to say a rather adversarial one, which might go a long way in explaining all the problems you are having.

It seems you have problems at many stores you enter, and perhaps you should carefully examine your attitude when dealing with people.

Well, I don't know what the store manager thought. I don't steal from them, so there should be no reason for them to think I do.

I had left the store and was unlocking my bike. I had talked with the manager, indicating my feelings that their provisions for storing my backpack while I was in the store was not sufficient. The cashier yelled at me that "You ride a bike, your money don't count." I was still upset and I responded with something about how I had been a customer there for 3 years. So she threatened to call the cops.

I suspect that this was just a policy change. I've been going into that store for over 3 years, and if they suspect me of stealing, thats completely unfounded.

The importance of getting legalistic is that I feel that most of these people have just been handed down an operating procedure created by a management. I don't think it was thought through, and I don't think they comprehend what level of care they are required to provide for my goods. So in part, for me this has been a search to know exactly what are my rights. And upon discovering what they are, to summarize them for anyone else who is having similar problems. Not legal advice, but a little info to help them figure out their own rights.

I want to prevent my backpack from being stolen while in their care. They obviously have a theft problem or they wouldn't be impounding my backpack. So I have to consider their store a high risk area. And from their comments, I know that preventing my loss is not high on their priorities.

I suspect that the long-term answer is the raffle-ticket system, even though I end up having to buy the raffle tickets for them to use.

What I wrote is not "mumbo jumbo". It's very straightforward if you read it. But I appreciate that it may seem confusing if you are not familiar with the American legal system. I have been shopping in all of these stores for over 3 years, peaceably going about my business, enjoying good relations with the cashiers and baggers. buying things and contributing to their bottom lines.

These changes in store policy are recent. I suspect that with the worsening economic conditions, they are experiencing increasing theft in their stores and they are trying to fight it. To do this they are implementing a number of policies including impounding backpacks. Since they are admitting that their store is a high-theft area, I want to be sure that my backpack is safe in their care.

I've even given thought to how I could give up having a backpack, but since it carries so many things including bike tools and parts, money, checks, and even expensive items like video cameras, I don't see any other way. So I have to ensure my goods are safe. If that's nutty, so be it.

I wasn't suggesting you had done anything wrong... I was just wondering where the heck they came up with the threat of calling the cops.

Personally I would just find another store, or better yet... if it's a chain, find the info for their corporate office and write a polite email/letter (or call) and tell them how you've been going to the store for 3 years, and you certainly understand why they might need to take action to prevent thefts, but be sure to bring up the "you don't count" comment and the threat of calling the police (be sure to come across as a fine upstanding citizen shocked at your mistreatment). And express your concern about leaving your bag with your valuables in it without reassurance that it will be kept securely.

Local schmucks can do what they want, corporate offices tend to react a little differently.

I'm well familiar with the American legal system and way of life as I lived there for over 20 years. Try reasonably speaking with people and you might just find a solution can be found.

We both know that no store will accept your contract or what not, so just what are you playing at?

With all due respect, living in the US for 20 years and being familiar with the concept of a bailee are two different things.

On the otherhand, I agree, writing up a contract won't accomplish anything.

I have another in my litany of questions: what do you look like Artkansas? I suspect appearance plays a role in this whole thing...

I agree with you about familiarity with the laws. That is the whole point of having to lay it out. I think that most store employees are very unclear on the laws affecting bailment, so they don't understand what is fair. It's pretty arcane stuff, not complex, but unknown. I understood a little from watching Wapner on the People's Court, but I'm having to educate myself.

I noted that about a contract. It's actually a good idea to get the store owner to realize the actual extent of the obligation they are really putting themselves under by impounding my backpack, but as I said, I suspect that it would only get me thrown out. But the contract is a good fantasy.

That's why the "raffle ticket" system is more likely to work.

Me, I'm 54. White, 6'1", 180 lbs. A pony-tail and goatee. I had wondered about appearance, at the same time, the stores I've been having problems in are all stores I have been frequenting for years.

This would probably be a good time to admit that, while I am not a lawyer, I am a law student... so I have at least some elementary understanding of the issues you're talking about (but again, I stress that no one should take my word for anything, talk to an actual lawyer... I'm still on training-wheels: nothing I say should be construed as legal advice).

Honestly, if you start trying to explain the concept of a bailee I think the employees of the store will look at you like you have two heads.

Do you actually have anything of value in your bag? Or is this just a matter of principle?

One way or another, in the end you might be putting too much thought into this, find another store, or live with entrusting your backpack to these people. We could try to talk out some of the many problems with this scenario, but I seriously doubt that it's worth it.

could you leave them a printout of a VERY simple translation of the legal language on the top, with the actual legal language printed at the bottom? or maybe you could mail that to the corporate people, along with a short explanation of what's been going on? the corporate people might not realize what the store staff is doing, and what kind of outlay they could be facing if someone's laptop gets stolen.

if they take to your raffle ticket idea, is there a way you could lock your bag up so no one can open it? maybe bring your own crushable bag that can be locked with a padlock, and put the backpack in it. either you could leave it with them or maybe they'd let you carry it if you give them the key. or maybe you could carry all of your stuff in one of those shopping baskets. just dump it out and give the bag to the people. sorry if that's a repeat; i've read this thread for so long that i don't remember what has been suggested and what hasn't. i know you shouldn't have to do a bunch of weird crap like that, but if the point is to keep your stuff safe without having to ride to a supermarket 3 hours away, then it might be a good compromise!

or, i dont know. maybe you could lock your bag TO something. either use a cable lock to attach it to the manager's desk or whatever, or get a lockable trunk or something like that on your bike and lock the hell out of that thing.

i agree that there's a point that this kind of fight gets to be way more effort than it's worth, and causes more problems than it solves, but when you don't have a car and you have to have a safe place to keep your valuables (especially now that the people at the store are pissed off), and there's no accomodating store to shop in, you have to figure something out. i live in a smaller town than you do, and in your situation i don't know where i'd go if the two grocery stores (one of which is tiny) didn't care about my business. it isn't like a big city where you just go someplace else. so i feel ya.

I agree with you. Store clerks cannot seem to understand that if they are having enough of a theft problem to demand a customer's backpack, that it might get stolen while in their care. Heaven forbid I try to argue law with them. I've watched the judge shows... I realize what comprehension level of the law most people have. They are just following the rather vague and poorly thought out directives of their bosses. I have talked with the managers, and they blame it on corporate, though I've found that they actually have quite a bit of latitude in what they do, so I don't believe the corporate policy line that they feed me.

In part my feelings are based on principle, and in part it is that I may have valuable items in my backpack when I enter the store, DVDs and CDs of company proprietary information, a video camera or laptop as well as my checkbook and other personal information. The store is right on my route home, and to go home first and come back would be a hilly 2 miles + of extra riding. As I've said before, there really aren't any alternatives. Kroger owns all the grocery stores in the area except for one Whole Foods Market. I shop at Whole Foods, but it doesn't have everything I need. So I can't ignore them and go to the competition as I would in other market areas.

So I'm thinking that my raffle ticket idea is the best solution at this time. It's cheap and easy enough for a clerk to fathom.

It doesn't protect me from theft by the employees or someone stealing it from the customer desk when it is unattended. But it does provide me with protection from the easiest scheme, that is for a perp to just go up to the desk and ask for my pack, as well as provide me with documentation of the bailment transaction should something happen, so that they cannot as easily say, "What backpack? You never gave us a backpack!".

Beyond this I don't know what to do. Locking down the bag would be problematic, though I'd gladly welcome a bus locker even if I had to pay 50 cents to check my bag in it.

Maybe get one of the Quick Mesh systems to protect your bag and lock it to something within their view? Interested to see what you come up with. I have had problems in the past with carrying my own market basket or mesh bag at certain stores. I don't shop their anymore.

Aaron:)

Here in Colorado (And many other places) they're in the process of passing laws to force the stores to charge for every plastic grocery bag you use... and a LOT of stores are pushing reusable bags... Including the various Kroger's stores (King Soopers here). They even offer a small discount if you use your own bags.

So... what are they going to do if you come in with reusable grocery bags?

July 4, 2010

I usually ride a motorcycle, but occasionally one of my collection of bicycles. This would apply regardless. I typically carry a load of electronics - laptop, DV cam, MP3, etc., plus all the info stored on them in my hightech backpack. The areas of the Krogers (Food-4-Less subsidiaries of Kroger) that I used to buy at are fairly high crime in Santa Ana, CA, and I've had stuff stolen off the bike and even right off the bagging area inside the store. As Art Kansas described, there is NO guarantee that you will ever see your stuff again if you do leave it with the checkout.

As to the silly security against terrorist issue, can someone point me to ONE single solitary attempt to bomb a supermarket or any other U.S. store using a backpack? And what about the PARKING LOTS???!!!! Car bombs are simpler to build, easier to conceal, and simple and easy to place in a parking lot during any hour of the day. Where are the blast walls at the Krogers? I'm typing this up using the free widi at Vons supermarket, BTW, and somehow they have survived without demanding my backpack...

My own encounter with Kroger over this and other issues of mismanagement at the local store level is detailed in my recent blog on the JoeUser site:

http://philosborn.joeuser.com/articl...ther_Oxymorons

I suggest a boycott, or if someone is really teed off, then ask the cops where you can legally carry a protest sign and watch how quickly Kroger reacts to you out there on the sidewalk with a placard. This is costing me about $1,000 per year, I estimate, given the proximity of competing groceries, and their inflated prices compared to Kroger's Food-4-Less division, for no good reason but typical ENRON or BP corporate arrogance.

I think you just like following orders.

Ohhh jesus f'n chist.
You prolly still believe Iraq had WMD's too.

I walk fast and wear headphones.
Basically I ignore them.

I have been stopped a few times, and made a stink about every woman walking in with huge purses positioned easily for shoplifting - while my backpack is strapped - unreachable - behind my back.

I'm a pretty good arguer, and a fast walker - so I've actually gotten to the aisle I wanted, grabbed what I needed and are headed to the checkout line, all while making my case.

You do not have the right to discriminate - and until purses are subject to these draconian policies where mostly MEN are asked to turn over their valuables to pimply (or senile) wallyworld workers - this is discrimination pure and simple.

Almost 4 years from the original post, over 2 years after Artkansas's last post on the subject, maybe Artkansas can give us an update on him and Krogers' standings. Since I now have panniers, I no longer have issues with backpacks being impounded.

Last week, I did have a grocery store employee inform me, in a rather stern voice, that their hand held shopping baskets were not allowed to leave the store when I opted out on one of their plastic shopping bags.

And the idiotic thing is, you actually have to take a backpack off to easily slip something in it, or - in the case of a weapon - out of it.

Meanwhile missy strolls in with one of these...
http://www.shopdictive.com/images/products/img_44.jpg
That's it... I think I'm gonna get the biggest honkin' man-purse I can find.

I went into MEC in Vancouver, a large outdoors store and bought some stuff, then walked over to a nearby second hand sports store. The counter asked me to leave my backpack. I bought something cheap there and then left with backpack. When I opened it to put my purchases in. I noticed that my MEC stuff was missing. Went back inside, and they said, oh yeah oops, my newly purchased items were behind their counter. Figured they would just take the tags off and put it up on the shelf.

Thanks for resurrecting this old thread... it an interesting issue.

One solution to Artkansas's dilemma would be to organize a group of 20-30 cycling grocery shoppers, pre-announce their arrival so the store manager is present and proceed to do their grocery shopping with panniers/backpacks. I think the manager would be leery of mistreating 20-30 paying customers, particularly in the grocery business.

There are a lot of situations facing cyclists that are insurmountable when we deal with them alone. But get enough people together and solutions can happen.

My current solution has been to buy two Sunlite Grocery Getter panniers and a rack. Even though each pannier is larger than my backpack, I sail right into Kroger's with them and I also can go to Kroger less frequently.

After my shopping basket incident, I now bring one of the wife's reusable shopping bags.

Thanks for the update.