2007 auto avg. expense
#51
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It's intellectually dishonest to count depreciation, opportunity costs, or any other pieces of fuzzy math when making these comparisons. When you buy a car (or anything), all the money you spent is gone. That's it. The end. If you make some back by selling it, count that money when it reaches your bank account. Trying to double-count such factors to make purchases seem better or worse just makes car-free advocates look like they don't understand math.
Last edited by uke; 04-10-09 at 02:03 PM.
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What price can you put on being able to drive home to visit your family 300 miles away? Or being able to take your girlfriend to the shore 250 miles away? I ride my bike for transportation as much as I can, but being completely car-free limits yourself way too much. Cars are more expensive, but they provide a service that bikes alone simply cannot.
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It's intellectually dishonest to count depreciation, opportunity costs, or any other pieces of fuzzy math when making these comparisons. When you buy a car (or anything), all the money you spent is gone. That's it. The end. If you make some back by selling it, count that money when it reaches your bank account. Trying to double-count such factors to make purchases seem better or worse just makes car-free advocates look like they don't understand math.
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What price can you put on being able to drive home to visit your family 300 miles away? Or being able to take your girlfriend to the shore 250 miles away? I ride my bike for transportation as much as I can, but being completely car-free limits yourself way too much. Cars are more expensive, but they provide a service that bikes alone simply cannot.
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Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
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Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
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What price can you put on being able to drive home to visit your family 300 miles away? Or being able to take your girlfriend to the shore 250 miles away? I ride my bike for transportation as much as I can, but being completely car-free limits yourself way too much. Cars are more expensive, but they provide a service that bikes alone simply cannot.
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If you want some #'s.
From 2/25/2005 to today:
Maintenance $1654.70. Thats 10 oil/filter changes changes, 5 tires, one wheel to make the spare match the rest, and one wheel bearing.
Fuel Record:
Total Miles 63,822
Total Gallons 3836.84
Avg. MPG 16.634
Total Cost $9,718.27
Total Hours 1,732
Gallons / Hour 2.22
Avg. MPH 36.847
Cost / Mile $0.15
add in registration once a year at around $89 * 4 years, I'm up to about 11k. for 4 years. This is higher than average though since its a full size 4x4 truck and since we moved in July we never go more than a couple miles from home unless its recreational use as everything we need is here but those .5 drives to work kill the gas mileage, my highest mpg is 21. So take your average sedan wher it gets 30mpg and averages say 20somehting you should be able to cut those costs by a third, then remember that car tires can be had much cheaper too, I bought truck rated 8 ply off road tires because I was tired of fixing flats on the farm.
I also added $934 in accessories from a truck cap to second battery and isolator as I'm setup like an RV for long days at the parks or camping on the farm.
From 2/25/2005 to today:
Maintenance $1654.70. Thats 10 oil/filter changes changes, 5 tires, one wheel to make the spare match the rest, and one wheel bearing.
Fuel Record:
Total Miles 63,822
Total Gallons 3836.84
Avg. MPG 16.634
Total Cost $9,718.27
Total Hours 1,732
Gallons / Hour 2.22
Avg. MPH 36.847
Cost / Mile $0.15
add in registration once a year at around $89 * 4 years, I'm up to about 11k. for 4 years. This is higher than average though since its a full size 4x4 truck and since we moved in July we never go more than a couple miles from home unless its recreational use as everything we need is here but those .5 drives to work kill the gas mileage, my highest mpg is 21. So take your average sedan wher it gets 30mpg and averages say 20somehting you should be able to cut those costs by a third, then remember that car tires can be had much cheaper too, I bought truck rated 8 ply off road tires because I was tired of fixing flats on the farm.
I also added $934 in accessories from a truck cap to second battery and isolator as I'm setup like an RV for long days at the parks or camping on the farm.
Purchase Price 1800 - sale price 4500 = 13500
Annual maintenance 200 * 7 - 1400
Repairs - Brakes 800
some switch - 200
some leak 300
power steering pump - 350
Tires 600
Total: 2250
insurance average -1500 average (This may be high for you but this is the cost in my location) *7=10,500
gas 800 *7 = 5600
Total cost per year - $4,750
Also, from this example you can see my depreciation was $13,500 or $2000 per year. Using both purchase price and deprecation would lead to an inflated cost per year but using just depreciation per year will give you an accurate amount for how much value your car is losing per year.
My bike expenses are probably about $1,000 per year.
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IRS says the deduction for cars is 58.5 cents per mile. This is remarkably close to the Yahoo figure, which is remarkably close to the AAA figure.
I suppose the obfuscators like ILTB will claim that the IRS and AAA are whiney bike culture advocates who are distorting the truth in order to make their ideological point.
I suppose the obfuscators like ILTB will claim that the IRS and AAA are whiney bike culture advocates who are distorting the truth in order to make their ideological point.
Cars have certain expenses that car free people don't pay, true, cars also provide transportation service and flexibility that car free people do with out. There are costs to doing without a car in American society, if you choose to ignore them them or "gloat" about being an ascetic, so be it.
BTW, what does your father pay for his automobile that you use to admirably perform chores for him when you visit him on weekends? Does he pay $8,000+/year just to keep that car on hand for YOUR convenience? Wouldn't it be cheaper to haul him around town on a bakfiet? Look at all the money that could be saved.
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Either my numbers are off, or yours are. If your car cost X, insurance also cost X, gasoline cost 2X, and maintenance cost X/3 for a total of 35,000 (250000*.14), that comes out to a "new car cost" of 8077 when solving for X. Did your car originally cost $8077 brand new in 1987?
#59
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Write back when the average bicyclist puts 15,000 miles a year on a bicycle and a bicycle proves out to be a direct 24/7/365 transportation replacement for a privately owned motor vehicle for the typical American family.
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You can choose to widen the scope to the "average family on earth" rather than the subject at hand, if you think that adds anything relevant to the discussion, I think it just makes you look foolish.
#61
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I agree with uke on this. Not the tone but the idea to count cash flows when they occur. The effect depreciation has on current cash flows is if it is some kind of tax deduction for capitol equipment. Like if you use the bike in your business. But these arguments seem silly, going from car dependent to car free affects everyone differently but most car free people who post here seem to think the changes saved them money.
My new 1991 Ford Festiva cost $5,600 cash in Iowa. It even came with an am/fm tape player and sun roof, but not much else . It got 40+ mpg for six years and I paid $25 total ( for a new distributor cap) in repair costs plus the costs of oil changes for 60,000 miles of use to include car pooling the 37 miles each way to work. Let the car free math wizards figure out how much I could have saved and improved my family's lifestyle by using a bicycle instead for those 60,000 miles. I sold it for $2500 in perfect working shape before moving to Germany in 1997
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How is paying $10,000 and getting nothing in return a non-cash expense? What is a non-cash expense, anyway? (And, please, let's keep this civil. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I bear you any ill-will.)
#63
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If anyone would care to, though I dont really, they could calculate the amount of money lost due to investment in a car? What I mean is that if you dont want to count depreciation as cost of onwership how about loss of opurtunity. If you buy a cheap car, lets say 10,000 just because it is a round number though admittedly higher than most of us cheap *******s would pay, and you sell it 10 years later for 4,000 then did you really only lose 6,000? What if you had put that money into a "real investment" and gotten 15% back? I think depreciation is a very important hidden factor in car ownership. So does AAA, Consumer Reports, and Wallstreet Journal. Do these people have hidden liberal agendas?
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bragi, $240 a month for fuel and maintenance is a considerable expense, and so is the $75 a month insurance. My average annual expense for my SUV is now under $500, with fuel, licensing, and insurance included. Last year's expenses were higher by an extra $400 for a new set of tires after 10 years of sun checking.(Still had a legal amount of tread)
For comparison, I quickly polled my car-driving friends about how much they spend per month on their cars, and not one of them came in under $450/month, or $5400/year, per vehicle. (Most have more than one car.) One guy does have an old Toyota pickup that only costs him about $300/year, but he only uses it for gardening purposes once in a great while, so he's wondering if it's even worth it to hold on to the thing.
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If anyone would care to, though I dont really, they could calculate the amount of money lost due to investment in a car? What I mean is that if you dont want to count depreciation as cost of onwership how about loss of opurtunity. If you buy a cheap car, lets say 10,000 just because it is a round number though admittedly higher than most of us cheap *******s would pay, and you sell it 10 years later for 4,000 then did you really only lose 6,000? What if you had put that money into a "real investment" and gotten 15% back? I think depreciation is a very important hidden factor in car ownership. So does AAA, Consumer Reports, and Wallstreet Journal. Do these people have hidden liberal agendas?
Read it again if you don't understand.
Cars are not purchased as investments and you only are fooling yourself with your sophomoric investment analogy.
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see: https://67.201.16.77/showpost.php?p=8706148&postcount=51
Read it again if you don't understand.
Cars are not purchased as investments and you only are fooling yourself with your sophomoric investment analogy.
Read it again if you don't understand.
Cars are not purchased as investments and you only are fooling yourself with your sophomoric investment analogy.
He's talking about the opportunity cost of the money that has been used to purchase that vehicle. Instead of using it to buy that vehicle, it could have been used to obtain a return in one of a number of different yield-generating investments. That means that simply looking at the purchase price is not telling the whole story - it is actually costing the car buyer more. Look up "time value of money" and gain some sorely needed "sophomoric investment" knowledge.
#67
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If you poured your life savings into lottery tickets tonight, you could wake up a millionaire tomorrow. Does this mean you're losing millions of dollars each night you don't play the lottery?
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Are you serious? Sophomoric investment analogy? Do you have a propensity for resorting to personal attacks when you don't understand the point someone is making?
He's talking about the opportunity cost of the money that has been used to purchase that vehicle. Instead of using it to buy that vehicle, it could have been used to obtain a return in one of a number of different yield-generating investments. That means that simply looking at the purchase price is not telling the whole story - it is actually costing the car buyer more. Look up "time value of money" and gain some sorely needed "sophomoric investment" knowledge.
He's talking about the opportunity cost of the money that has been used to purchase that vehicle. Instead of using it to buy that vehicle, it could have been used to obtain a return in one of a number of different yield-generating investments. That means that simply looking at the purchase price is not telling the whole story - it is actually costing the car buyer more. Look up "time value of money" and gain some sorely needed "sophomoric investment" knowledge.
Presumably all money spent on food and clothing and every other essential should also be considered as investments where the money could/should have been spent on yield generating investments.
Cars are not investments, get it?
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I think a big problem here is that a significant number of car-free advocates (as judged by this thread) don't understand the meaning of a sunk cost. Let's let wikipedia help:
The sunk cost is distinct from the economic loss. For example, when a car is purchased, it can subsequently be resold; however, it will probably not be resold for the original purchase price. The economic loss is the difference (including transaction costs). The sum originally paid should not affect any rational future decision-making about the car, regardless of the resale value: if the owner can derive more value from selling the car than not selling it, it should be sold, regardless of the price paid. In this sense, the sunk cost is not a precise quantity, but an economic term for a sum paid, in the past, which should no longer be relevant; it may be used inconsistently in quantitative terms as the original cost or the expected economic loss. It may also be used as shorthand for an error in analysis due to the sunk cost fallacy, non-rational decision-making or, most simply, as irrelevant data.
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Cars are not investments, get it? They are not meant to provide a monetary yield.
Presumably all money spent on food and clothing and every other essential should also be considered as investments where the money could/should have been spent on yield generating investments.
Cars are not investments, get it?
Presumably all money spent on food and clothing and every other essential should also be considered as investments where the money could/should have been spent on yield generating investments.
Cars are not investments, get it?
If cars were essential, everyone would have one. It seems, by the very existence of this forum, that that is not true.
Determining cost of ownership, which I believe is the purpose of this thread, is impossible without accounting for time value of money. That was his point, and even with your repeated attacks and infantilism (get it? Again, are you serious?), it's germane to the discussion.
#71
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By using the "time value of money" as an excuse, you can justify any purchase you value and demean any purchase you don't.
Last edited by uke; 04-10-09 at 10:15 PM.
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Not at all. For the purchase of a bicycle and all associated gear and equipment, if you are trying to determine a true total cost of ownership, you need to also factor in time value of money. Then you can make a fair comparison between the two.
#73
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Several people in this thread (including myself) have already determined the costs of ownership of our vehicles (whether cars, trucks, or bicycles). If you find it impossible, your motives are suspect, not the calculations.
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Uh, yeah, I never said cars were investments. I was simply trying to help you understand some basic economic concepts, here.
If cars were essential, everyone would have one. It seems, by the very existence of this forum, that that is not true.
Determining cost of ownership, which I believe is the purpose of this thread, is impossible without accounting for time value of money. That was his point, and even with your repeated attacks and infantilism (get it? Again, are you serious?), it's germane to the discussion.
If cars were essential, everyone would have one. It seems, by the very existence of this forum, that that is not true.
Determining cost of ownership, which I believe is the purpose of this thread, is impossible without accounting for time value of money. That was his point, and even with your repeated attacks and infantilism (get it? Again, are you serious?), it's germane to the discussion.
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Exaggerating the costs of car ownership, while ignoring the non monetary value provided in order to somehow promote (or "gloat" about) the virtue/benefits of car free self denial/asceticism is the purpose of this and similar threads on LCF. I suggest you return to the Road Cycling forum and take your "help" and explanations of the purposes of LCF threads with you.
In my own experience, I find that being car-free is a lot less expensive, and a lot more enjoyable, than owning a car. Buying a car, a piece of machinery that is going to cost, at minimum, $5000 (for something reliable) just to purchase, and then insuring it, fixing it, putting fuel in it, licensing it every year, and possibly managing debt to acquire it in the first place, has got to be a much more expensive prospect than buying a bike, another piece of machinery that, in its entirety, contains far less metal than a typical car door, and is much easier to maintain. If you find that you have the resources to own a car, decide you actually need one, and use it only when necessary, I have no issue with you. But please don't attack people that have made another choice, and don't pretend that car ownership doesn't involve significant expense.