Ekdog

Solutions have been proposed in this thread and others, but you haven't commented on them. And why do you put the onus on others to come up with ideas without offering a few of your own?

Mobile 155

More or less all we have done to this point is confirm the car is a tool. It is a very popular tool, even if some buy them as a fashion or status statement. Face it some people do the same for designer jeans some do it for homes and some do it with TVs and Computers. As far as people not "realizing" there are other options it becomes hard to explain China's massive expansion into the car world. They have had all of the options that have been mentioned and yet they are moving away from many of them. Not yet in the same percentages as the Western world but in gross numbers they have switched to cars in larger numbers than the us. And no I won't post it again because I have before. The Chinese are ahead of all predicted models of car acceptance by more than five and as much as ten years. And they are running hard into the same problems we have but moving hard is still the ley word. https://www.theguardian.com/world/201...new-car-market

We seem to fail to take into account people's desire to do things the easy way. I am not in a position to judge a nation as large as China's for their reasons but at one times they made Denmark seem like car heaven and they were bicycle central. All of the world has seen the change on TV from watching the Olympics in China so we know what is taking place. So, they they had mass transit, they had dense cities, they had bicycles that would make Denmark green with envy. And yet they are moving towards cars. I don't believe the Chinese are stupid. I don't believe the majority and walking blindly into an abyss. I believe they are simply expressing the natural desire to make life easier for themselves. And what tool are they choosing?

wolfchild

Sometimes choosing the easy way can have some negative consequences in the long run. The Chinese are trying to " keep up with the Joneses " and the will pay a heavy price for it in the future. I am not an eco-warrior but everybody knows that China has some very serious problems with smog and pollution, people in large cities have to wear pollution masks to protect themselves. Imagine when all those millions of Chinese adopt cars and start driving, some of their cities will become unliveable. I know we can't stop progress, that's why human race is destined to almost destroy themselves in the future, and reduce the entire world population to a much smaller number then what it is today.

Smallwheels

They don't require much effort to make them move. They are more compact than e-bikes. Segways are very small. They can be taken indoors. They use about the same space as a chair and can be put against a wall.

Why choose a Segway over the existing transportation choices? They are fun and different. We already know that most people choose cars. If we're going for an alternative then motorcycles and bicycles are out because we know only 2% choose to use them. Segways would only be useful for people living within cities. They would be impractical for someone in a suburb to use as a sole means of transportation into town. If a Segway user could bring it on a bus or train then it would be a great complement to the daily commute.

Segways are great transportation tools. Unfortunately they are very expensive and the company isn't doing any type of big advertising to let people know they even exist. Without enough advertising there won't be enough sales to keep Segways in production. I hope this company survives.

Dahon.Steve

Sorry about the gender error.

Farms today, are not located anywhere near a railroad and rely on trucks. This was not the case 100 years ago and if you had a farm, the railroad was the only way to get your product to market. It may not be the case today but entires cities were built before the combustion engine. Heck the Statue of Liberty was built without trucks.

I wanted to make a point that we started using the autombile as a tool 100 years ago. We will have to find a new tool 100 years from today. Life will be hard for the first generation but when motor transport becomes a distant memory, society will return as it was 200 years ago. Reading newspapers 150 years ago, I noticed no great human suffering from the lack of motorized transport.

SevenSpokes

The other side of this battle is getting the common person in our communities to see the bicycle *AS* a tool.

Right now, most Americans (I'm going based on where I'm from, your milage/KM may vary) few the bicycle as a toy. Some people have high priced toys, some have low priced toys, but in the end, they are seen as toys. Or poor people conveyances.

I live in a middle to upper class neighborhood, chosen in park because of my spouse's insistence and it's very close to our community bike trail. The trail runs me right to work (6 miles), so I'm content here. Not happy, but content. Anyways...

Most of our neighbors work in the same company as my spouse, who does not bike commute. Every day, I look out the window and see 5-6 cars/SUVs all heading the same way, to the same direction. The bus line runs right past our neighborhood (.7 mile walk for the farthest house), and runs right to their place of employment, but none of them take it. It amazes me.

What amazes me more is the look of amazement, disgust, awe, or whatever you call it when I roll in or out on the bike, panniers and all. Being a bicycle commuter is something foreign to them, something they can't wrap their hands around. They will never see themselves on a bike, in the rain, commuting to work or the grocery store. They will never see the bike as a valuable tool. You won't get them out of their SUVs until they are priced out by rising gas prices, and even then, I honestly think they'll sacrifice their children or something so they can drive.

Until you change the culture, the car will seen as more then a tool... it's a lifestyle. And if you've ever tried to get someone to quit smoking, stop drinking alcohol, or give up Ho-Hos for a diet, changing a lifestyle is very, very difficult.

Dahon.Steve

Whatever happend to all those Segways I used to see? LOL!

I used to see them on the streets of New York City being used by the police deparment. There must be thousands of Segways collecting rust in basements across the nation.

gerv 

But don't you feel that this is slowly changing? I see a lot of people using their bikes to get to the grocery store or just to pick up a six pack. I didn't see that much 10 years ago.

Mobile 155

And there you may have hit the nail on the head. When I tell people how far I ride a week or how far I am willing to ride I get a look like lobsters are coming out of my ears. And that is from friends that know I cycle way more than drive. But some of them do seem to understand they just aren't willing to apply sweat equity to their transportation choices. I have a good friend that is a Professor at a local college. I never see him or his wife driving their car. They both ride motorcycles almost every day. The other day he saw me in the store and said, "I think I am now almost a green in my transportation choices as you. He then took me out to see his new Nissan leaf. 100 percent electric. for the distances he travels to work and the store he only has to change it once or twice a week. And it is rated as non polluting. I said, you know you could have bought a recumbent trike? He said, "oh no, it wouldn't do for me to show up and teach a class all sweaty and it would destroy my wife's silk blouse."

Like I said earlier personal transportation is a tool, a choice, and I don't believe anyone doesn't know about the alternatives. The professor friend of mine is part of the green coalition I belong to. Everyone one of the members has an interest in a better cleaner world. Some believe in it through recycling, some through solar power, some through promoting renewable alternative fuel. Several have cars that run on bio diesel, made from excess restaurant oil and other sources. But out of maybe 100 people only three see cycling as a solution. One of those three designs and builds his own bikes including a high rolling recumbent. But still they see cars as a tool and believe a solution to ICE will come along just like they do to a solution to heat islands. And when it does they say, cars will be sustainable.

Roody

Personally, I do NOT advocate or expect that anybody should be denied ownership and use of cars. I do advocate reasonable restrictions to limit the damage caused by cars. For example, I believe that gasoline for private automobiles should be outlawed. That would undoubtedly kick start the development of cleaner technology!

I also think we should begin making some parts of cities carfree. Cars should also be banned from more road lanes, making way for bus lanes, bike lanes, streetcar tracks-- hell, even Segway lanes for Smallwheels.

And don't forget that there are already millions of poor and working class families, many with dependents and health problems, who have no access to cars. Some of these people live in rural and suburban areas.

Roody

If you're saying that there is no transportation mode as convenient and luxurious as cars, I totally agree. But we've all given up conveniences and luxuries when we discovered that they were unhealthy or included hidden costs.

I-Like-To-Bike

Believe it or not, one size does not fit all. Nor does one transportation solution that meets the needs and desires of a small slice of the population fit all, no matter how self righteous that minority may be.

I-Like-To-Bike

Segways are also very HEAVY, the minimum weight is 93 lbs with battery. Too heavy for many, many people to handle lifting up the steps or onto a bike rack of a bus, into a vehicle trunk, over an obstacle or up or down the steps in their homes or apts. Maybe alright for people to roll out of their garage and go as far as the first curb or obstacle though.

I-Like-To-Bike

You don't advocate that anybody should be denied the use of their car, just the fuel to operate it.
That tops your previous "Sandy" response.

Roody

Thank you. I'm glad I'm making progress in a positive direction.

I was reading that one reason Sandy was so devastating was that the sea level has risen several inches since the last major storm hit that region. Even a seemingly small rise in sea level will increase the destructive effects of storm surge. And the reason the sea level has risen is that the global ocean water has expanded because it has become warmer lately. Guess what caused it to warm up? Scientists predict that sea levels will rise at an even faster rate in the next few decades.

BTW, in terms of financial costs, Sandy was the second worst storm in history. Every car owner should send a couple bucks to the relief efforts, in order to cover their share.

As for outlawing gasoline... I think that if it was prohibited, starting in 10 years, "all of a sudden" the auto industry would figure out how to make cars that run efficiently on batteries or some clean fuel. This would probably work even if the ban was passed in only one large state, most likely California.

Machka 

Because it doesn't matter to me. A car is simply a tool which I will use whenever I feel the need to use it.

If it matters to you, come up with solutions.

Ekdog

Again, solutions have been put forward, yet you refuse to consider them. You've made it clear that nothing matters to you but your own personal comfort and convenience. How sad!

Machka 

It's not sad ... it's the truth, for me and thousands of others. That's why any "solution" to replace the car has to be acceptable to the thousands like me who don't think there is anything wrong with the car ... especially when it is used occasionally as a necessary tool, and not used for silly purposes like driving half a kilometre to get a bar of chocolate.

Ekdog

Is putting the word "solution" in scare quotes and resorting to argumentum ad populum really all you have to add to the discussion?

Machka 

Did you fail to read my comments in Post 38?

What did you want me to add to the discussion?

Machka 

Ah, I see. So in other words, you use the car (or van or truck) as a tool. OK ... we're in agreement then.

Ekdog

Good point. You did propose a Star Trek-style dematerialization beam in that post, so you have come up with a possible solution to the car problem. My bad.

Notgrownup

For me, i will tell you i love my motorized vehicles... But If the infrastructure country wide would make it easier and SAFER for me to get on my bicycle to ride 6 miles to the grocery store i would do it...If i had better and safer paths to get to work like i did when i lived in Toronto i would do it but only when it got cooler..I can't see myself getting to work all sweaty and then sit in a office with that situation...NO WAY...if i had access to a shower then maybe...
I have 2 cars and 2 Harleys, riding mower, gas pressure washer, gas generator, gas weedeater...I guess if all of those would HAVE to be replaced by non fossil fuel burning modes of power and it would be long lasting and affordable then i would probably consider...I would miss the Patatoe sound of my Harley Davidson the most...
Until that happens i will burn the fuel baby....

Machka 

That ...

And that those who care should come up with a viable personal, independent, convenient replacement for the car. If you care that much, become an engineer, and figure out a solution.

I will be interested to see what those who care come up with in the way of new and different fuels for cars, for example. Maybe you can explore using solar power, or water, or plant-based fuels. Or maybe those who care should explore the idea of enclosed multi-bikes ... something 4 or 6 people can sit in and pedal. But that's up to those who care to figure out.


1. Cars are not a blight on society. They are a solution to the problem of needing a personal, independent, convenient replacement for the horse and buggy.

2. Yes, there are concrete measures which can be taken to lessen whatever impact cars have.

3. No. Failure to do so would not represent a moral failure.


Meanwhile, I will continue to walk as often as I can, cycle as often as I can, use public transportation as often as I can ... and use my car as a tool, whenever I feel I need it.

Machka 

So how then do you propose to deal with the huge blow to the tourism industry a move like that would make? Not to mention the manufacturing industry.