Understanding Backlash Against Car-Free Advocacy
#226
C*pt*i* Obvious
If these people were given the choice, I'm willing to bet almost all of them would prefer to have the freedom to live in the country and the privacy of a car.
They're poor so who cares eh? Nice attitude.
They're poor so who cares eh? Nice attitude.
#227
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The whole point of the thread is that if people DO talk about their (environmental or political) motivation, it provokes a backlash from someone like you who immediately misrepresents them as smug, preachy, nags, or whatever, with no real evidence except your own preconceptions.
#228
Prefers Cicero
Wow you read my mind, that's exactly my attitude about poor people.
#229
Prefers Cicero
Talk about the bad parent. It's like "here Johnny, have a cookie. Hey! Who said you could have a cookie!"
#230
C*pt*i* Obvious
/end thread
I'm guessing more than a few people here have not lived outside of the western world for very long.
For most people they have no other choice, and statistically most people stay in the same wealth class they were born into, and very few things are voluntary.
See what happens when you fail to pay taxes, as an example.
I'm guessing more than a few people here have not lived outside of the western world for very long.
For most people they have no other choice, and statistically most people stay in the same wealth class they were born into, and very few things are voluntary.
See what happens when you fail to pay taxes, as an example.
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Migration into cities that have insufficient housing and employment for the rural refugees. They come to the cities not because there is great opportunity, but because there is fractionally more than the near total absence of opportunity in the economically depressed outer areas from which they come. This has many potentially troubling consequences for the cities, but the causes for these migrations should concern us all. The long term impacts of this change may include a lot of unforeseen pitfalls.
#233
Sophomoric Member
The whole point of the thread is that if people DO talk about their (environmental or political) motivation, it provokes a backlash from someone like you who immediately misrepresents them as smug, preachy, nags, or whatever, with no real evidence except your own preconceptions.
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#234
Sophomoric Member
Even more so in Africa and South America. Worldwide, most people want to live in cities. This has been known for thousands of years. As soon as agriculture is able to feed excess laborers, the cities begin to grow. This was as true in Babylonia and Thebes as it is in Kinshasa or Seoul today.
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#235
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Those are people working in a specific industry that had a vested interest in the issue. Of course they will react to a threat to their livelihood. But how do you think their sentiments spread to the public at large? I bet it is through lobbyists and PR firms and other public opinion molders who plot their strategies in smoky backrooms.
It would be a pretty naive tree hugger who thinks the way to protect trees is to convince loggers not to log. The idea is to get the message out to the population at large, and influence public perception and public policy.
Tree spiking is one of the worst ideas ever. No mainstream environmental group has ever endorsed it. But that is one of the propaganda techniques people use against advocacy - lump any reasonable advocates in with the extremists, to make it seem as if they are all extremists.
Are you sure about that? I'll have see if I can find any contrary evidence to your assertion.
No, of course not. Taking the bait from some trolls trying to wind you up is not the way to win hearts and minds. You were smart enough not to fall into that trap.
It would be a pretty naive tree hugger who thinks the way to protect trees is to convince loggers not to log. The idea is to get the message out to the population at large, and influence public perception and public policy.
Tree spiking is one of the worst ideas ever. No mainstream environmental group has ever endorsed it. But that is one of the propaganda techniques people use against advocacy - lump any reasonable advocates in with the extremists, to make it seem as if they are all extremists.
Are you sure about that? I'll have see if I can find any contrary evidence to your assertion.
No, of course not. Taking the bait from some trolls trying to wind you up is not the way to win hearts and minds. You were smart enough not to fall into that trap.
An no matter how anyone tried to sugar coat it Tree Huger is a social derogatory term. Almost everyone has a story of some workers losing a construction job because of a Kangaroo rat, or some other useless reason. But there is a face that people see when they think of Tree Hugers and that face is ELF and to a degree Green Peace. And it is a true backlash because you may or may not remember the French sunk the Rainbow Warrior. There was no real out rage because everyone seems to feel they are strange people to start with. I donated to get a new ship built but only because of why the old one was sunk not because I support their cause. I think that is a lost cause. ( I suppose anyway) But in reality most people seem to see environmental issues as anti working man issues. Stop a Dam from being built and you keep good paying jobs away from the area. Stop the Keystone Pipeline and you hurt the economy. And it does no good to say the oil will not get used because if the US doesn't get it the Chinese will. And how does the idea spread in Washing state? It spreads from Coffee cup to coffee cup and glass of Oly to Oly or Rainer Ale. That is where I first heard the term in a local pub from local people living in Seattle.
#236
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An no matter how anyone tried to sugar coat it Tree Huger is a social derogatory term. Almost everyone has a story of some workers losing a construction job because of a Kangaroo rat, or some other useless reason. But there is a face that people see when they think of Tree Hugers and that face is ELF and to a degree Green Peace. And it is a true backlash because you may or may not remember the French sunk the Rainbow Warrior. There was no real out rage because everyone seems to feel they are strange people to start with. I donated to get a new ship built but only because of why the old one was sunk not because I support their cause. I think that is a lost cause. ( I suppose anyway) But in reality most people seem to see environmental issues as anti working man issues. Stop a Dam from being built and you keep good paying jobs away from the area. Stop the Keystone Pipeline and you hurt the economy. And it does no good to say the oil will not get used because if the US doesn't get it the Chinese will. And how does the idea spread in Washing state? It spreads from Coffee cup to coffee cup and glass of Oly to Oly or Rainer Ale. That is where I first heard the term in a local pub from local people living in Seattle.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Ad populum" redirects here. For the Catholic liturgical term, see Versus populum.
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."
This type of argument is known by several names,[SUP][1][/SUP] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity,argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy, and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), andconsensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.
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I didn't say you were bizarre. Go back and read my post.
What does seem very strange to me is that anyone who argues that we need to reduce the number of cars on the roads because of the role they play in hastening catastrophic climate change or because of the huge numbers of people they kill is accused of being a proselytizer, a fundamentalist, a finger-wagger or a smug hypocrite. We need to stop this name-calling and get back to discussing the issues.
What does seem very strange to me is that anyone who argues that we need to reduce the number of cars on the roads because of the role they play in hastening catastrophic climate change or because of the huge numbers of people they kill is accused of being a proselytizer, a fundamentalist, a finger-wagger or a smug hypocrite. We need to stop this name-calling and get back to discussing the issues.
Oops.
#238
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You've hit the nail on the head! Almost anyone admitting to being CF or CL around here feel they must immediatley add a disclaimer to their comments making it clear that they do it for selfish reasons only and that they have nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. How bizarre! Meanwhile, the truth, sober as a judge, just won't go away:
Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'
As you can see, "bizarre" does not refer to you or to anyone in particular, but rather to the preceding sentence and to the fact that mentioning that one cycles for the benefit of the commons in any way is frowned upon by many here. I do believe that that situation is most unusual. Some would go so far as to prohibit any such comments.
#239
Sophomoric Member
My original reason for being carfree--in 1973--was because of the environment, and specifically fossil fuels and global warming. For the last 40 years, that's been my primary motivation for being carfree. Of course I enjoy riding bikes and walking. I love the exercise and I love saving a lot of money. But the main reason has been the environment.
So I have to laugh when I hear that people won't do anything for environmental reasons, including drive much less. I am living proof that people can do this. If I can do it, anybody can.
Yes, environmentalism is unpopular among people who make their living by cutting down old growth forests, or people who build pipelines. But it remains one of the most popular movements overall. People who are reasonably intelligent can understand that pollution hurts their planet down to their local community.
Nobody likes to see polar bears drowning or Yellowstone Park burning down. People will usually do the right thing when they know what the right thing is. The truth always comes out eventually, no matter how much money greedy millionaires like the Kochs spend on spreading lies.
So I have to laugh when I hear that people won't do anything for environmental reasons, including drive much less. I am living proof that people can do this. If I can do it, anybody can.
Yes, environmentalism is unpopular among people who make their living by cutting down old growth forests, or people who build pipelines. But it remains one of the most popular movements overall. People who are reasonably intelligent can understand that pollution hurts their planet down to their local community.
Nobody likes to see polar bears drowning or Yellowstone Park burning down. People will usually do the right thing when they know what the right thing is. The truth always comes out eventually, no matter how much money greedy millionaires like the Kochs spend on spreading lies.
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Okay, here are my exact words:
You've hit the nail on the head! Almost anyone admitting to being CF or CL around here feel they must immediatley add a disclaimer to their comments making it clear that they do it for selfish reasons only and that they have nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. How bizarre! Meanwhile, the truth, sober as a judge, just won't go away:
Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'
As you can see, "bizarre" does not refer to you or to anyone in particular, but rather to the preceding sentence and to the fact that mentioning that one cycles for the benefit of the commons in any way is frowned upon by many here. I do believe that that situation is most unusual. Some would go so far as to prohibit any such comments.
You've hit the nail on the head! Almost anyone admitting to being CF or CL around here feel they must immediatley add a disclaimer to their comments making it clear that they do it for selfish reasons only and that they have nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. How bizarre! Meanwhile, the truth, sober as a judge, just won't go away:
Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'
As you can see, "bizarre" does not refer to you or to anyone in particular, but rather to the preceding sentence and to the fact that mentioning that one cycles for the benefit of the commons in any way is frowned upon by many here. I do believe that that situation is most unusual. Some would go so far as to prohibit any such comments.
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#243
Prefers Cicero
This is the crux of the debate. We all agree this is happening The question is: how does that meme get perpetuated? I suspect it gets a lot of subliminal help from industry and their PR strategists who work to plant the idea in everybody's head.
#244
Prefers Cicero
I remember addressing that in another thread. Are those people moving to the country, or to southern and western cities?
#245
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You (and a few others) seem unable (or unwilling) to grasp the distinction/concept between a poster providing the rationale for his own car free behavior, and a poster repeatedly posting about the nation(s)'s various political and social ills and what "we" all must do in order to save ourselves.
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You (and a few others) seem unable (or unwilling) to grasp the distinction/concept between a poster providing the rationale for his own car free behavior, and a poster repeatedly posting about the nation(s)'s various political and social ills and what "we" all must do in order to save ourselves.
#247
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I'd agree as far as this list is concerned. It has become a swirling (cess)poll of political and social posturing by a few posters who cannot resist interjecting P&R "discussion" preaching points into as many threads as the mods will allow, rather than anything concerned with posters' living car free or with a reduced reliance on privately owned motorized vehicles.
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I'd agree as far as this list is concerned. It has become a swirling (cess)poll of political and social posturing by a few posters who cannot resist interjecting P&R "discussion" preaching points into as many threads as the mods will allow, rather than anything concerned with posters' living car free or with a reduced reliance on privately owned motorized vehicles.
Last edited by Ekdog; 02-06-14 at 12:25 PM.
#249
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The few topics that are of particular concern to those concerned with eliminating/reducing the use of a motor vehicle have already been addressed. The problem on this list is that the answers provided are almost always are written from the perspective of individuals with no family responsibilities, and with no empathy (or a lack of concern) for those that do have other responsibilities than just getting themselves back and forth to work and the grocery store. When the limitations of such responses are pointed out by myself or others, the list gets a barrage of posts from the usual suspects preaching how the current political/social structure needs to be overhauled so that this or that or every car free person can thrive in a candyland of a future utopia.
#250
Prefers Cicero
You (and a few others) seem unable (or unwilling) to grasp the distinction/concept between a poster providing the rationale for his own car free behavior, and a poster repeatedly posting about the nation(s)'s various political and social ills and what "we" all must do in order to save ourselves.
Last edited by cooker; 02-06-14 at 02:16 PM.