bgraham111

First off, I realize there is no right answer. There just isn't. And I almost hate to ask. But... I'm in the process of over-analyzing my choices, and, well, why not ask a bunch of strangers.

I've always really liked biking what I thought were long distances. I've done some touring with the tents. Done some centuries. And then I heard about this thing called "Randonneuring", which seemed impossible. But I've done a few brevets now, and I plan on doing some more as the season goes on. I'm really liking it.

I also know that I'm a good candidate for a custom bike. And I'm OK with that. I've had bike fits, and I've got my cheap road bike set up as good as I can get a bike set up. And it's not bad. But several years into this and I think I'm ready for a new bike.

I've got it narrowed down to 2 companies/bikes. And I'm looking for thoughts and feelings from people who are more experienced that I am.

Seven - titanium
Waterford - R-22 lugged steel

The Seven would be a little lighter, and resistant to corrosion.
The Waterford would have the classic looks of a lugged steel frame.

I know that the material isn't a big deal, since a good builder can make both feel good (or bad). I've been riding a test bike from Seven this weekend, to acquaint myself with Sevens and Ti. I keep thinking about weight, corrosion, paint scheme, color, classic good looks, bike-as-a-conversation-starter, ride quality, etc...

What else should I obsess about and overthink?

Thanks!

dwmckee

I have no opinion on either frame, but can tell you that I have fairly odd body dimensions (exceptionally long thigh for my height) and never felt quite right until I bought a custom sized Comotion Cascadia. My bike now fits me like custom leather pants fit to Mick Jagger. It is a great harmony for me. The custom part is probably more important than the material. I wear my bike, not ride it... The custom part for me altered the seat tube angle and geometry to get my knee in proper position over the pedal for optimal comfort and power. I wound up with more toe overlap with the front wheel than most have, but for me that was not a significant issue (I have small feet too).

bgraham111

That's good to hear! I'm 5'8" but I have long arms and legs for my height. Short torso. Means my top tube length and steam length become issues. I can't get a stem short enough, so custom is the path I probably need to take. I'm sure both will be great choices...

dwmckee

if you go custom. with our dimensions pay attention to e toe overlap when they spec our a frame. They may not highlight the amount of toe overlap required to fit the rest of you. Also, consider a 650b wheel...

mtn.cyclist

I would choose titanium over steel. I know everyone will not agree.

Steamer

Something to consider is clearances for the width tires you like to use (and for fenders – if you use or want the option of using them).

Other major factors are the type of brakes you want and if you are looking to have something like internal cabling for a dyno hub.

A connector-less connection to the fork?: https://www.nabendynamo.de/produkte/sl_steckerlos_en.html

Interior wiring back to the taillight? Taillight mount on the back of the seat tube?

lonesomesteve

Yeah, this is really just about your personal preferences.

One minor point though... You mentioned resistance to corrosion as a selling point for titanium. I suppose it depends on where you live and how you store your bike, but in my experience rust/corrosion is not an issue with steel bikes. I've owned steel bikes for decades, ridden them in the rain frequently, but I've never had to put a bike down because the frame rusted out from underneath me.

Titanium might have other advantages, but I wouldn't consider resistance to corrosion a significant one.

bgraham111

Thanks everyone. Yeah - I'm going to keep my eye on toe overlap. Good idea. Am I'm 99% sure I'm going with 650B wheels. With my height, I think that will help. (Although the designers will have a big vote on that.) Just looking forward to riding a bike without a stem riser and the worlds shortest stem.

unterhausen

If I had my heart set on a traditional randonneuring bike from Waterford, I would go through Mike Kone at Rene Herse/Boulder Bicycles. And I do think that's a really good choice for any kind of distance riding.

I don't know much about Seven. I'm sure they are fine, but it would be more work for you to make sure you got what you wanted.

Someone mentioned the SON SL connectorless dynohub option above. I would recommend going for that. Eventually you are going to have a front flat in the rain in the dark and you don't want to be messing with wires.

antimonysarah

Seven knows randonneuring, so I don't think that's an issue. Is it the same local fitter/shop that would be working with you and [whichever bike maker]? If not, that might be even more important than Waterford vs Seven.

thebulls

I was going to make the same suggestion about Boulder Bikes ...

As to steel vs Ti. Ti fatigues faster than steel. I know three randonneurs who have reached the fatigue limit on their Ti rando bikes. One was a Seven, one was a Santana tandem; not sure about the third. The two I know about were roughly a dozen years old or less at time of death. I don't know anyone who's reached the fatigue limit on a quality steel bike, at least nothing like that soon. (I did have a lower-quality-steel '83 Trek 400 whose seat tube cracked away from the BB--but I think that was rust-related, the bike had been stored in a humid basement for twenty years; and an '82 Trek 614 that had a fork failure, but that was a design defect.)

clasher

If corrosion resistance is important there's the new stainless feel tubing out there... Dunno if fatigue would be a problem but I imagine it's hard to weld or braze. I was thinking about SS myself but the custom option is a few years out now.

StanSeven

I've done just one double century so my endurance experience is limited. But I have both a Waterford and Seven. Both are great. But based on what you've said, I would go with Seven. The ability to choose more than just the geometry is amazing - you specify your rides, style, degree of comfort, performance, and what tradeoffs you want to make. They deliver on that based on varying tube sets and wall thicknesses.

I wouldn't worry about the local fitter because first, Seven trains them. The local fitter takes measurements and your data including watching you on a trainer, and sends it to Seven. You complete a length questionnaire. Then someone from Seven spends time on the phone with you. They develop a design and send it to your dealer. The dealer gets you on an adjustable bike and you and he finalize the build.

They really get it right.

guidoStow

The fatigue limit for Steel and titanium alloys is very similar...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit

Assuming the frames were designed and constructed correctly there should be no lifespan service differences.

StanSeven

There's also a good article about fatigue limit on Sheldon Brown's site. About the only people saying steel is better is Grant Peterson and Rivendale.

bgraham111

Well.... I rode a test Seven all weekend long, and on Monday. It was really really nice. Hands down, the nicest bike I've ever ridden. With that said....
... I think I'm just too tied to the idea of getting classic lugged frame. The engineer in me wants to go with the Ti, but I think the lugs are drawing me in.

Luckily, I'm using the same fitter/bike supplier for either choice. Actually, that's why I'm pretty sure I want to go Seven/Waterford, because she is an authorized dealer for both, and she's done a really nice job on other stuff. I want to work with her since I trust her.

And +1 on the SON SL connectorless dynohub.

Thanks everyone!

StanSeven

I understand what you're saying about lugs. My Waterford is made with 853 which doesn't need lugs. But Waterford uses them as part of their design which I like.

tarwheel 

My go to bike for long rides for many years was a titanium Merck AX. Then I got a used Waterford RST-22, which fits me perfectly. It quickly became my bike of choice for long rides or riding for any purpose. I sold the Merckx. Rust is not an issue with steel bikes if you take care of them. That is, store indoors and wash regularly.

guidoStow

I build my own lugged steel frames, so I completely hear you on that. But there is no denying the elegant simplicity of a fine TIG welded bike. If you are still open to consider Ti, Firefly makes some amazing rando bikes too...

79pmooney

And on the flip side, if this bike is a keeper for years or decades - steel bikes are painted. Paint gets chipped. After a few years, a bike ridden hard really should be repainted. Repaint it with a new color and bingo! a new bike! All is good. (That corrosion issue could work in your favor.)

My '79 Peter Mooney has been repainted once and is patiently awaiting its second. Still rides like new after every overhaul.

Ben

unterhausen

fatigue limit isn't really the right issue. All the cracked Ti frames I've have had a stress riser in a weld. Some of the bigger companies have gone weigh-weenie at some time in their history. Other companies don't have the same problems. I think that a randonneur should make their preferences known, that reliability is more important than weight

joewein

To chip in my 2 yen's worth on steel vs. titanium: I don't know huge numbers of cyclists who ride Ti frames here, but even so, several among them had frames that cracked and needed to be re-welded or were replaced by the maker. OTOH, I don't know anyone in my circle of friends riding a steel frame that had to stop doing so because it was cracked or seriously corroded.

A well-designed, perfectly welded Ti frame will probably be every bit as long-lasting as a steel one or longer, but don't simply assume a Ti bike will last longer than a steel, carbon or aluminium one just because it's Ti.