morrisond

Yes I saw that BQ. Heine's set-up isn't that Expensive - the frame cost is not much more than a Warbird (the price you can get a lugged steel frame built up for) - and you would need all the same lights and Generator Wheels for the Warbird Anyways.

I think I am leaning to a Custom Steel or Ti frame with an AERA Carbon Generator fork - you can run a wire inside it up the Steerer to something like a Cinq plus. No SON-SL system but a Co-ax connection for the Gen Hub looks like not a bad compromise - and as the AERA has an inside channel for the wire up the fork leg no Zip ties.

I have an Ortleib Outfront Handlebar bag that I used on my Warbird which worked pretty well - I just didn't like how it flopped a bit when stopping, but I can play with the Geometry a bit to get around that.

Thanks

ThermionicScott 

I think I know what morrisond is referring to, and it might need a little unpacking. Jan likes to talk about rarely needing to brake, but that's a result of his riding style. Sure, none of us need to brake often when riding on level ground with open roads, but he's also very comfortable letting the bike coast up to high speeds on descents, riding in pacelines where one feathers the brakes at most, and from what I've gathered likes to do cyclocross dismounts at stops. So that leaves emergency braking and required stops at the bottom of a hill as the few times he would need to apply the brakes hard.

My riding is much different, I do a lot more braking.

kingston 

When I was looking at getting a lightweight tubing custom rando bike with all the bells and whistles I was getting into the $10k+ range pretty easily. I would be surprised if Jan spent less than that on his bike, especially considering the custom/prototype one-of-a-kind components. I didn't think a warbird cost that much, but I could be wrong about that.

Andrey

If you have a couple of bikes I would ride them all to see what you like especially on rides above 400k. At the end of the season you will like certain features more that others. Some people prefer wider tires and front bags, Brooks saddles, fenders, etc...some prefer race bikes with almost no gear. I think I fall somewhere in between.

I used to have a thin steel tubing low trail geometry bike for long distance with front rack and an Acorn bag, fenders, etc..( reading too much Jan H). During some long distance events I also used my "race" bikes . I was much faster and fresher on the light bikes than my "rando" bike during those events. I realized I prefer a race bike even on the long events and I can not stand the front bag. Also I had to review my gear(clothing and bags) choice for weight savings.

I went through the same thing as you a few years ago and after a long research I build a "long distance" bike.

My requirements were:
1. the lightest bike I can afford
2. no front bag
3. tires up to 32mm
4. ability to fit a rear rack (I remember trying to secure a camelback on the bike during a 1000k, since my back could not stand it any more. It was really hard to secure a camelback on a saddle bag behind the saddle. It is much easier to secure any additional stuff on rear rack if needed).
5. no low trail geometry, preferable race or enduro geometry
Not that many bikes were available in carbon and ability to fit a rear rack.

The bike that I got is Jamis Endura carbon, enduro geometry, it does fit 32mm tires(although I prefer 25-28) . I can mount fenders on it but will not use them for PBP. I prefer a very light rear rack and I use an Arkel trail-rider bag(very light) . No front bags for me, although I use the dynohub and front B&M light, so I do not have to deal with batteries, Campy 10 speed with compact 50/34 in front and 12-30 in rear. I use a Sella_Anatomica saddle on rides over 600k and a plastic saddle if the millage is less. I can also use a frame Banjo Brothers frame if I need more bags to carry stuff. So far it has been a great chose . It could be just my fitness that got better, but the same brevets got easier and faster and I could sleep more on 600 and longer brevets.
If I was building a similar bike now I would opt for hydraulic disc brakes.

morrisond

Thanks for your answer. Interesting that you went away from the Jan Heine style. I think where you ended up is where I will somewhat end up as well - just with the ability to put bigger tires for long distance riding that might have Gravel or Rail trail sections which I quite enjoy. It will be rear rack capable as well.

morrisond

It looks like I can get a builder I trust to build me a Steel (my choice of tubing) fillet braked or lugged frame with steel SON SL fork on the front for less than $2,500 USD a Carbon Warbird Frame is $2,000 so not that big of a difference. But you are right by the time you add it all up it will be closer to $10,000.

samkl 

Before you buy a new bike or commission a custom bike, ride more. You'll figure out what you want. Some people like carbon, some people like steel, some people like 650b, etc. There's no wrong answer generally, but there may be a wrong answer for you. Maybe not. Riding more brevets will help you figure it out.

That being said...

Is the Jan Heine - 650B steel - Centre Pull brake, flexy fork/ front Rando bag/ SON SL Generator system the ultimate or is there a better way?
People spend a lot of $ on custom bikes - I hope to myself, one day. But often they're asking for a version of a 70s racing bike: flexy frame with good tubing, lively but not super-aggressive geometry, comfortable over long distances, and room for 700x32mm tires and fenders.

After finishing some challenging brevets this year, I figured this is what I wanted. So I got an old 70s bike and modernized it--a 1976 Austro Daimler Vent Noir. I'm very happy with it. It weighs just under 25lbs with a Brooks, fenders, and dynamo, but no luggage. Not insanely light, but pretty good for a 62cm frame. (I could get another .5lb off pretty easily, if I'm inclined.)

It rides great, feels fast, and does everything I want it to. It wasn't as cheap as I thought it'd be (spent ~$12-1500 total), but it was money well spent, and I couldn't have found a new bike so suited to my preferences, and so good for the purpose, for anywhere near that cost.

Battery Lights or Generator Lights?
Go with the dynamo and a good light. Now I like riding at night more than during the day. You won't regret it.

Aero Bags vs big ass bag out front(Maybe it breaks the wind?)?
I use an awesome Dill Pickle handlebar bag and a less-awesome (but still fine) Dill Pickle medium saddlebag. It looks funny and is hard to keep organized. Post-PBP I got a tool canister to segregate the tools.

Other notes
I used a Brooks Team Pro but struggled with getting it properly adjusted on PBP. The problem is that it changes shape as it breaks in, which changes the fit--and not for the better, in my case. Now I'm looking for a new saddle.

Carefully consider what clothes you'll bring. I had 3 changes of clothes. Way too many! Really I just needed the wool jersey on my back and one, maybe two bibs. And more cold weather gear.

Here's my setup. Imagine it with the Dill Pickle bag on the front, too.

kingston 

I'd say go for it. As @samkl points out, you don't have to spend that much, but you can't take it with you so you might as well spend your money on a nice bike. Keep us updated if you go custom. I'm always interested in seeing how different people decide to build up their dream bikes. I may go that route if I have any money left over when my fourth kid graduates college in a few years. Mine will have rim brakes and I could go either way on dynamo lighting. I have both setups and don't really have a preference one way or the other. Like everything, pros and cons either way.

rhm

I have bought into the Jan Heine groupthink in a somewhat selective manner. Can't say I'm much of an independent thinker here, but I'm not regretting many purchases. So... Breaking it down a bit...

I have found I really like fat tires, though perhaps not for the obvious reasons. I get fewer punctures, big tires are easier to mount/dismount without tools, easier to pump up, and so on. They are just less trouble than skinny high pressure tires. Aside from that, they are presumably also more comfortable than skinny tires, but I can't claim I really feel the difference there. They may be slower, but I don't notice that either.

I definitely like dynamo lights for all the reasons mentioned. The dynamo also lets me keep minor electronic gizmos like my cell phone and GPS unit charged on long rides. All in all it's a good thing to have.

I have no strong feelings about low trail geometry, for its own sake, but a big bag on the front is a really good thing. Having all my crap right there saves time. Being able to snack without getting off the bike saves me from stopping. If I'm riding with other people, I can get to my stuff without slowing them down, or letting them go on ahead without me, which I also value. And the front bag works well with low trail geometry. So yes, low trail geometry has its place in the equation as well.

I was a late convert to disc brakes. But I'm over that. Screaming down unknown hills in the dark, in the rain, with dodgy brakes, you quickly get over the thought that a resilient fork gives a better ride. Disc brakes give peace of mind.

Tourist in MSN

I agree with the others, wait before buying a custom frame. If you do several brevets over the next year, ask others what they like or do not like about their bikes. That gives you time to assess geometry issues like trail. And time to asses brakes, rim vs disc. You might be able to test ride some high and low trail bikes too. And ask the carbon users and titanium users what they like or do not like about their frames compared to steel. And if you go custom Instead of off the shelf frame, what extra frame fittings would you want on the frame that are not usually included? For example, I do a lot of touring, I have a water bottle cage under my downtube, that is common for touring but rare for other types of riding. When not touring, I put my spare tube, small multitool, etc., in a small jar in that under-downtube bottle cage.

Regarding the 650b discussion, I think of 650b as being a tire size and nothing more, if there is some secret sauce that makes it a better tire for brevets I am unaware of that. I regularly ride 700c and 26 inch bikes, have not ridden a 650b bike since the 80s. The only thing I notice on the difference between 700c and 26 inch is all my 700c bikes with fenders have toe overlap and the 26 inch ones don't.

You could get the front wheel now if you are certain of wheel size and desire to get the dynohub. If unsure on brake type, get a wheel that will work with both rim and disc brakes. And getting a wheel for both types of brakes is not such a bad idea, a friend of mine bought a new dynohub wheel two years ago and then a year ago bought a new disc brake bike that can't use that wheel. You could start with just the headlight and then when you build up the dream bike later add the USB and taillight.

I think you are looking at a large front bag, but i am not sure on that. A front rack is a common way to mount them. I ride large enough frames that it works well for me to set up a second stem and use a regular handlbar bag that has a quick release mount instead of using a front rack. The second stem method is not common for rando riders, but it works well for me, a few photos at this link:.
Help with handlebar bag and rack selection

You have lots of things to think about, take some time to think about them and if you go custom, do that a year or two from now.

I have found off the shelf frames to meet all my cycling needs, never considered custom. But I have normal body proportions. If you have an unusual shaped body, then a custom bike might make a lot of sense, but that is up to you and Santa to resolve.

rhm

Well, you can call it secret sauce if you want, others call it the Jan Heine Koolaid. Whatever. The thing that makes 650b stand out is that you can get really excellent tires in that size. You can now get equally good tires in 26" and 700c, so the 650b size loses some of its attraction.

For a smaller rider, I would definitely consider 26" wheels.

Tourist in MSN

I sort of agree, but depends on types of riding.

It is easy to find good road tires in 26 inch that are 40mm wide and wider, but if you want skinny tires, they are much harder to find. The two 26 inch bikes that I put the most miles on are touring bikes, for touring I always use tires that are 35 or 37mm on 700c or 40mm wide or wider on 26 inch. Thus I have no problems with my use of 26 inch.

But if you are riding brevets, are there good 26 inch tires? That I do not know, and since I only use 700c for brevets I am not going to research it.

rhm

Well, yeah, you make good points. 26" wheels with skinny tires are significantly smaller than the alternate sizes, which is part of the reason they make a lot of sense for the smaller rider; but with fat tires the overall diameter approaches the 'normal' wheel size. For my purposes, that's great since, as I said before, I like fat tires anyway. I haven't researched good skinny 26" tires, but I suspect it really depends on what you consider a good tire (I did ride 26 x 1 Primo Comets for a while... those are not good tires).

On the other hand, one of my brevet bikes has 26 x 2.3 'Rat Trap Pass' tires, and I've ridden it on all kinds of brevets-- SR series, fleche, 1000k, 1200k, a bunch of permanents. Whether those are really the best tires for the purpose, I can't say; but I like them.

kingston 

While I don't think the OP is interested in 26" tires, I use Michelin Wild Run R 26x1.1 on my recumbent. Acceptable quality at around $25/tire. Other options are Schwalbe Durano & Conti Grand Prix at around $45/tire and the Rene Herse at $80/tire, and that's about it. My upright randonneuring bikes are all 700c. I use narrow tires and wide tires and don't really notice that much difference either way on pavement. Gravel roads are a different story, but our club brevets have hardly any gravel so I have been using narrower tires recently. They feel a little faster, but it's probably because my bikes that can accomodate wide tires are also quite a bit heavier. Before gravel bikes became popular, you couldn't get wide tires and a lightweight frame without going the custom 650b route. A lot more options these days, so the only reason to go the BQ route now is if you really love that aesthetic.

ThermionicScott 

There's the ~30mm RH Elk Pass, probably the highest-performance skinny 26" tire you can get. Based on the tread pattern, I'd expect the 26"x1.25" Pasela to roll as well as 32mm Paselas in other wheel sizes. I thought the 26"x1.75" Pasela was decently comfortable and fast before switching to Naches Pass, so I'd expect the 1.5" Pasela to be decent, too. Not 100% in love with the thicker siped tread though.

morrisond

32mm's are now racing tires!

I run 32mm GP5's on my Racing Disc Bike (A Custom Big-Tubed Filet Brazed Columbus HSS bike).

I run 38mm Barlow Pass's and swear by then for general riding - great on Ashphalt, great on Gravel and great on Dirt.

morrisond

I think I'm going to take the advice many of you on here are proposing. Do at least a few 300 or 400K Brevets and make sure I enjoy it before deciding on a new bike.


I do have a Surly Disc Trucker that I just built and am using as a Winter Bike and already have a good battery lighting system for it. I quite like the frame (the way it handles) and at my weight (240lbs and not much fat - at least in the summer - in the winter not so much) it actually rides pretty well especially with 38mm Compass tires.


Currently it has Hylex Rs brakes and Campy TT shifters in the ends of a Compass Bar with Potenza Derailleurs and an FSA 46/30 Omega Adventure Crank.


I don't like the weight of the bike - (and the shifters in the ends of the bar kind of drive me nuts - but work well in the winter with big gloves as they are Return to centre) - but I can use the Potenza derailleurs for another bike and I have some Record 11sp Ho/H11 parts sitting in boxes that I can use - plus stealing a few ENVE (handlebar and Seatpost) parts and my my i9 wheels off my Warbird before passing it off to my son - will bring the weight down quite a bit. He can have the heavy wheels and cranks off the Surly.


Funny thing is I like the way the Surly handles so much I have been using the Geometry as a basis of what I have been drawing out for a new custom. Its basically Gravel Geometry excepting for the 460 Long Chain stays but that doesn't seem to affect it's turn in ability too much.


It will also take up to 45's if I'm going to do some gravel.


I'll build one of the World's lightest Disc Trucker's - now that's an oxymoron - but it will be fun.


Thanks

unterhausen

I know someone who discovered an issue with his bike just before PBP, so he bought a LHT frame and transferred parts. He finished.

Tourist in MSN

Most of the weight of a bike is the stuff on the frame, not the frame itself.

I have a Titanium bike that was designed for loaded touring. The rear wheel with tire and cassette weighs more than the frame weighs, but the rear wheel is a 36 spoke touring wheel designed for a load, so of course it is heavy. And that Titanium bike weighs much more than my steel road bike that has light weight components on it.

unterhausen

that's a good point. A LHT frame is 2-3 pounds heavier than a Warbird frame at most

Tourist in MSN

I have no clue what LHT frames weigh now, I owned a first year of production (2004) LHT, the frame was 2.34 kg and the fork was 1.02 kg. (Or a bit under seven and a half pounds for frame and fork.) They re-designed the frame a few times since then and the disc version might weigh more, thus I would not be surprised if they are a bit heavier now.

Not familiar with the Warbird.

morrisond

I can't recall exactly - but i think when I weighed my LH Disc Trucker it was just over 8 lbs in a a size 60.

Or about 3.6 KG.

My warbird was 1,200 g on the same scale and the fork was 480ish. So it's almost 2 KG lighter or about 4.5 lbs. It's a lot.

kingston 

I've seen a fair number of LHT's on brevets. Bike weight doesn't make all that much difference if you're just trying to finish. Acceleration isn't that important in randonneuring, and unless the ride is very hilly, I don't notice that much difference between a 20 pound bike and a 45 pound bike.

Steamer

4.5 lbs is a lot? Not by my standards.

unterhausen

We all have our limits. I figure it takes 10 pounds to be noticeable, but my methodology for that is sketchy at best
I noticed that all my bikes are a lot lighter if I empty my bags. That works fine on a 200k, but that isn't going to happen on a 1200k. And really, the main time I notice the weight is when I'm off the bike. I had my gravel bike for a couple of years before I had to carry it up 10 flights of stairs and realized how heavy it is.