Rowan

So, does the RBA represent RUSA or not?

Or is the RBA some independent dictator who has no regard for the national rulings?

My point is valid if the RBA is a RUSA representative.

Obviously this practice, which is not a qualifying requirement set by the ACP, exists... which leads to the question: Why?

I would say that there would be absolute upheavel -- mutiny even -- if this sort of practice was promulgated by Audax Australia or any of the state reps.

LWaB

Different countries, different organisations, different practices. Some countries are very keen on requiring a 'qualifying SR' for their 1200+ brevets, not allowing stops of greater than two hours during fleches or having mandatory routes, other countries don't have such limitations. Such is life.

drmweaver2

The more I look around the 'Net at local USA club/organizer requirements for their brevets, the more I am convinced that it is a question of liability (most likely financial/insurance) and/or a stated concern for safety (though that might actually be (legal) cover for other concerns - lost riders/DNF's who become "unaccounted for" still out on the route, and other such "better cover your ass" legal concerns that organizers might have).

I guess they figure if a rider has completed the next shorter ride, the rider's chances of completing this one are greater (forgetting that probability does not equate to actual results in individual sequences).

90% or more of the brevets require riders to sign waivers absolving the RUSA and local club/organizer from financial and legal responsibility in their entirety. However, the US civil tort/litigation system being what it is, lawyers may be hired to seek financial compensation for whatever negative occurs on the ride - including failing to finish, costs incurred to return to the start point due to "poorly compiled cue sheets", etc. RUSA specifically tries to insulate itself from financial/legal responsibility by requiring the club organizer to carry insurance and explicitly stating that all riders are responsible for themselves/whatever expenses are incurred.

So, by requiring riders to have done the shorter rides prior to attempting a ride of X_length, organizers appear to be trying to limit their exposure to legal crap/bad eperiences with "unqualified" riders/riders who simply bite off way more than they can chew.

Any good lawyer in the US can/will at least make the same routine argument that is used against any "service/product provider" or event organizer when something goes wrong - "The fact that this product/service was offered means you the manufacture, provider, organizer) are responsible, at least in part, for any and everything that happens - regardless of any waiver signed." Ask Phillip-Morris, some of the car companies and even rock concert promoters who've paid millions to settle claims.

That's my guess.

unterhausen

This whole thing came up because Rowan invented a requirement to ride the shorter distances first. I haven't seen anything about that except for 1200ks. Even then, I've seen people talk themselves into the field with justification. However, I spent a few minutes reading the RUSA rules, and as far as I can tell, there is nothing preventing an RBA from refusing the entry of someone they don't feel is going to finish.

I will note that when you sign up for a SR medal on the RUSA site, they give a list of brevets that would qualify. This is not in any distance order.

I happen to look at people that want to run brevets like I look at anyone else that is doing me a favor. If they want to protect themselves from dealing with unprepared riders, so be it. Maybe in Australia there are so many people lining up to put on brevets that you can have a riot if the vegemite is a little off, but here in the U.S. there are not so many people running brevets that we can lose any.

penexpers

Are you planning to go? Yes.

Have you been before? No.

How are you planning to travel to the start? Take the ferry to Cherbourg/Roscoff and drive down from there.

Will you camp or hotel/motel? No idea.

What kind of bike will you use? Surly Crosscheck

Is this a different bike than you've used for other events, including PBP? No

Is there a particular piece of kit you'll get for this event and why? I think I have everything I need. I will probably upgrade my lighting a bit and replace the fenders. Possibly look into new panniers as well.

What kind of training are you planning to do?
This bit I have not figured out yet. My intermediate goal is a 200k brevet in March. If I can make that then I think I can make the rest.

Homeyba

He didn't make it up. Back in the olden days, before RUSA, it was a requirement as was completing an SR series in each of the two years prior to PBP. Those weird and sometimes arbitrary rules are part of the reason RUSA is here now.

Machka 

Another "rule" that I am fairly certain existed in the past was that when a ride organiser planned a route, that route could not travel over the same direction on the same road more than once. In other words, an out-and-back route was OK, a single large loop route was OK, but if an organiser wanted to do a series of shorter loops, they all had to be in different directions so that the rider would not ride the same road.

In fact, when I asked the leader of the Alberta Randonneurs if my 600K route could be my 400K loop + 200K loop, with some slight modifications to ensure riders did not ride the same road in the same direction, I was told that would be "illegal" in the eyes of the ACP, and that my 600K route had to be something entirely different.

Over here in Australia, many of the weekend events consist of your choice of a selection of events done in loop routes. They often offer a 100K, 200K, 300K, 400K, and 600K all on one weekend consisting of approximately 100K loops in different directions. At the end of 100K, you return to your vehicle and get something to eat or whatever, and continue on. It's like having bag drops, but the organisers don't have to round up volunteers or anything.

Someone on another forum questioned whether or not routes could be designed like that ... and I'm sure I've read that they could, but that organisers had to be so very careful to keep riders from travelling the same direction on the same road. But when I started looking, I couldn't find anything much at all about route design. In fact, from the lack of comment about it on the ACP and BRM sites, a person could run an event with one 100K loop and have riders ride that same loop, travelling in the same direction on the same road, 2 or 3 or 4 or 6 times to complete the desired distance.

Perhaps I imaged that there were rules regarding route design ... or maybe they've changed in recent years ... or maybe the rules are still there, but I can't find them.


Anyway, regarding riding the events in order ... in the Canadian prairies the time period between the last blizzard of the season and mid-June is usually so short you've got to pack the whole series into 5 or 6 weeks. It just makes sense to run the events in order. Although, one of my best series was one I opted to ride out of order ... I did a 200K, 300K, 600K, and then my 400K. It felt good to get the 600K out of the way early, and then my 400K was a nice relaxed ride. I feel spoiled for choice here in Australia!!

bobbycorno

And now for something completely different... Early on there were rumors that all PBP 2011 participants would need EN certified safety vests. I checked the PBP web site, but couldn't find any reference to this. Can anybody confirm or deny this? And if we do need 'em, where are they available?

SP
Bend, OR

unterhausen

there was discussion of the vests at the last RUSA meeting (just happened to read the minutes last night on the site). It is their understanding that the vest requirement is still there, and they couldn't figure out how to help us get one of those vests, so we're on our own.

RUSA has a rule that a route cannot include repeated loops, no matter how large. I assume that comes from ACP.

Machka 

That rule may have come from ACP once long ago ... and I do think that rule did exist long ago, it seems to me I've seen it ... but not anymore.

These are the rules:
https://www.audax-club-parisien.com/E...p?showpage=322

Regarding vests and lights:

Article 6 : For night riding, vehicles must be equipped with front and rear lights attached firmly to the vehicle. Lights must be fully functional at all times (Spare lights are strongly recommended; spare bulbs are required). At least one of the rear lights must be in a steady (rather than flashing) mode. Riders not complying with all these requirements will not be permitted to start.

Lights must be on from dusk to dawn and at any other times when poor visibility conditions exist (rain, fog, etc.). Each rider, whether riding in a group or by himself, must fully comply with this requirement. Everyone must use their lights! All riders must wear a reflective vest, sash, Sam Browne belt, or some other device that clearly places reflective material on the front and back of the rider.

Any violation of these night riding rules will result in the immediate disqualification of the rider.


And there are rules regarding riding the event unsupported, within the time limits, using unmanned controls, etc. ... but not a word about the design of the route.

I have also looked at the Audax Australia and Alberta Randonneur sites to see if there is anything and if there is, I'm not seeing it. I also looked at Audax UK, and all they seem to have is this little article about planning a route: https://www.aukweb.net/official/gatew...s/04_Route.pdf ... but again, no official rules regarding the route planning, aside from the fact that riders do have to go through all the controls.

kk27

Yes this route design Rule or should I say Philosophy made life difficult for us Randos in India. The thing is there's no Organization there as yet so we are the organizers & the riders too and Volunteers are usually friends or family or ATM machines. But the lack of understanding or clarity of rules makes it difficult to design routes. Heck we were even disallowed to setup Unmanned Permanents, and because of this very reason we only have just 2 SR series to cut it to PBP & it's all packed in 4months it makes us quite nervous. At this stage we'd be happy if we can use the Loops atleast Family volunteers will not have to travel 600kms just to wait around for a few cyclists to pass by.

cheg

Quote from the 2011 PBP pamphlet:

"According to French law, a reflective vest is mandatory when riding at night. Alternatives like a reflective sash or belt are not acceptable as substitutes."

The French law passed in 2008 requires all motor vehicle operators and passengers to have EN471 vests available inside the car in case they have to get out of the car in a breakdown. Cyclists are explicitly required to wear the vests at night and in low visibility. In other words it's not an ACP requirement, it's French law. Is it worth a 90 euro fine and possible disqualification from PBP to test whether it is enforced?

I have not found one yet but I'm going to start looking online. Need to get used to wearing the thing before August.

Machka 

Of course you can use loops. Many of the routes here in Australia are loop routes, and they're great. When I heard about the loop routes in Australia, I created one for my 600K event in Alberta, Canada (I was a ride organiser there). I had a 400 km first loop off in one direction, and a 200 km second loop in another direction. Worked very well for me as a ride organiser because I didn't feel like I had to round up volunteers or anything, and it worked well for the participants because they had a place to catch a nap, shower, and something to eat at the end of 400K ... their own hotel room.

Regarding having manned or unmanned events, in both Manitoba and Alberta where I started randonneuring and where I've done most of my randonneuring, there was no such thing as manned events. You were completely and utterly on your own out there. We got our cards signed at grocery stores or cafes and then mailed them in to the organiser when we were finished. Some of the events here in Australia are like that too, but some actually have people ... volunteers ... at the controls. It's a novel experience for me!

And regarding the SR series, in Manitoba we had from mid-April to mid-June to get the rides in. They would run two 200Ks, possibly two 300Ks if they could fit them in, and then one each of a 400K and 600K ... one weekend after the other, with a weekend break between the 400K and 600K. The 600K was finished days before the cut-off for qualifying for the PBP. We had one chance to get the series in ... or we were out of the PBP.

In Alberta, the season is even tighter. Several years in a row I tried to run two 200Ks, and one each of 300K, 400K, and 600K ... but my first 200K on the last weekend of April was cancelled because of blizzards. So I no time for anything extra.

Read the Audax UK article I posted above. They've got some good tips on route creation.

unterhausen

obviously you can use loops, but there is a temptation to use a 25 mile loop over and over. RUSA says they will not approve such a route. Does ACP have to approve routes for countries like India?

Sekhem

That's both good and bad news. In playing around with the numbers in the PBP announcement about number of riders that have registered for the last PBPs (1999/3573 riders, 2003/4184, 2007/5311, about 11% total riders from the USA) a quick guestimate is that if the cap is around 550-600 then about a third of the eligible riders who would otherwise ride without the cap (about 781) won't be able to register in 2011. To estimate that there are fewer than 600 - 600k/1000k might suggest that growth in the sport hasn't continued to rocket into the nosebleed section. The down side is that the the number of 2010 results might influence the total number of slots allocated to the US in 2011. I know that there are a few riders who made an effort to complete two series or two 1000K+ rides this year to try to help bump up the number. Who knows if it will make a difference but it would have been nice to see a higher number.

but then this is all a guessing game, isn't it?
Hopefully everybody who wants to go will get the golden ticket!
Happy Holidays everybody!

kk27

Yes, That's what our ACP Rep said!!!

claire

Jean-Gualbert Faburel from ACP gave an interview recently with some updates on PBP2011:
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2010/1...te-all-riders/

New things are:
-an electronic chip
-an extra rest area in St Nicolas du Pelem

Another thing I heard about on the french long distance forum is that a certificate of medical aptitude won't be required anymore... Still to be confirmed...

Marcello

The PBP French forums at https://parisbrestparis2007.actifforum.com/forum.htm have some interesting discussion, and reading them can be a good way to practice if you are learning French in preparation for next year.

Machka 

The ACP has to approve the routes for all the countries ... including those in the US.

"Article 1 : Only the Audax Club Parisien has sanctioning worldwide authority for these events. The ACP registers all brevets. Each brevet receives a verification number. These are assigned chronologically based on time of receipt. The ACP has registered all brevets since their inception in 1921."
https://www.audax-club-parisien.com/E...p?showpage=322


RUSA may not approve a repeated loop for the US routes, but I cannot find anything in the ACP rules that would not allow that anymore. I can't find much of anything at all about route creation, but perhaps the route creation information is sent to the organising bodies rather than posted online and that may be where I've seen it before. I was a ride organiser for the Alberta Randonneurs, so the information may have been sent on to me from the Alberta Randonneur president.

In Canada, each of the provincial clubs is their own organising body at the same level as RUSA, Audax UK, Audax Australia, etc. Canada does not have an overall organising body like other countries do. Here's a list of all the organising bodies ... the ACP representatives worldwide:
https://www.audax-club-parisien.com/E...p?showpage=321



You might make contact with someone from Audax UK to be a sort of mentor. I believe that the Japan Randonneurs did that with the BC Randonneurs ... the Japan Randonneurs wanted to get started a few years ago, and BC Randonneurs sort of mentored them through the process.

La Tortue

• Are you planning to go? If I can qualify?
• Have you been before? No
• How are you planning to travel to the start? the friendly skies
• Will you camp or hotel/motel? hotel.
• What kind of bike will you use? Moose
• Is there a particular piece of kit you'll get for this event and why? La Tortue de Fer and da moose kit
• What kind of training are you planning to do? simply ride
• Do you speak French? No
• When in January will the organizers announce the quota system? Seems with a 6K limit everybody will get in?

Marcello

• Are you planning to go? **** yeah!
• Have you been before? No
• How are you planning to travel to the start? I already spent all the frequent flier miles I accumulated in three years on a single flight ticket to Paris. Originally I was planning to fly into London and ride the Avenue verte bike trail to Paris, but I won't be able to take the extra time off from work. Maybe I'll do that in 2015.
• Will you camp or hotel/motel? I will be at the Etap Hotel Saint Cyr, which is inexpensive and very close to the start.
• What kind of bike will you use? A Catrike Speed, the same trike that I used on the Cascade 1200 this summer. Very comfortable, and I don't even need to get off the trike to take a short nap. Plus, I get to start 30 minutes before the rest of the 90 hour riders, and I already know my start time. Hopefully I will get to the controles before the bulk of the riders, and have less of an issue with crowds.
• Is there a particular piece of kit you'll get for this event and why? I will bring an ultralight sleeping pad (Therm-a-Rest NeoAir), which I really missed not having on the Gold Rush 1200 and the Cascade 1200. I will also have a large Topeak Trunk Bag with Expandable Side Panniers, so that I will have room to carry back souvenirs, perhaps a nice bottle of Brittany cider, or the traditional block of cheese. Other than that, same stuff I carry on the shorter brevets. If anything, I may bring less than usual, since I hope to thrive on a diet of galette complète, jambon-beurre, and Paris-Brest pastries.
• What kind of training are you planning to do? As I have done in the past two years, I will do a lot of armchair studying of the route and of the elevation profile, and look for similar climbs around here, that I can practice riding on. And I will try to ride lots at night, to see if I can improve my speed (which is quite a bit slower than my daytime average). I would like to do all the rides needed to complete a Randonneur 5000 between now and PBP, but I am not sure that I can fit a 1000k in my schedule. I am also learning French, hoping that it will make for a more pleasant experience overall.

La Tortue

I would really like to go trike but all the extra sleep I can get by going with two wheels makes me chicken out. Hope to see you there and wish you the very best.

Homeyba

Unless you're pretty fast I'd say good luck with that plan. Last time I did PBP from the front of 90hr group we caught the specials before the first control and I'm sure you'll be in the thick of it by the second control. Just be prepared for crowds the whole ride. Don't worry though, it's a lot of fun!

vik 

Good to see the bent posse representing at PBP. Hopefully the weather is nice and the roads smooth....enjoy...

Marcello

Oh, I know that the fast riders will zoom by me well before the first controle. I am just hoping I won't get trampled by the thousands of "more normal speed" riders behind them.

I have to say that it is hard for me to visualize the number of riders that will be on the road and at the controles. I mean, here in the USA, the largest brevet I have been on had around 100 riders, and there may be more than that number at PBP just counting the recumbent riders. Having lots of people to ride with, and no convenience store junk food, I really look forward to that.