Homeyba

LSD rides? Is that some sort of Timothy Leary thing?

Homeyba

You weren't hypothermic, you were under nourished/hydrated.
As far as your backside goes, follow what Machka said. The lower back issues go away with fitness (usually) and your ass is just being fitted right on the proper seat.

sakeed123

6 bottles of water in the 5 hour ride- hence the heavy backpack. Two tuna sanwiches prior to riding, and then two sandwiches during + two apples.. hardly think under nourished is the problem. I'll end up 300 lbs. I personally feel I am probably pushing myself too hard for an endurance ride. I start out the same regardless how far I ride. I push it like I am in a race against the clock. Maybe I need to learn to pace myself if I want to ride longer distances with someone, but I feel for my personal goals the century rides are not needed since I hit a wall a good distance priuor to that distance in my biking workouts- that is what I do this for= a workout, not bragging rights for distance. Thank you all. I guess it "to each their own". I get what I need in 40 miles or less.

Might sound arrogant, But I rarely get passed on a trail. The few times was when I was fatigued in a long ride AND headwind and the two guys that stand out had legs twice my size and aero bars- again, Im 6'4 and not very aerodynamic. Im a 45 yr old guy just finding a new outlook for working out my whole life- sick and tired of treadmils, steppers, and lifecycles. On that start of that recent 75 mile trek(had no idea I was riding that far- (just keep going because it was a beautiful day)- I got a good laugh because 8 miles into my ride I come accross two guys on PCH in Huntington/Sunset beach area. One of which was sporting his Cal State Long Beach riding jersey and both on extreemely high end looking rigs. I crossed over them diagonally going up onto the winding MUP trail along the beach as they stayed down on the highway. As I turned their way, they had a good 200 yds on me which gained to about 400 yds a few miles up when I left the MUP and dove out onto the highway to avoid the heavy Huntington Beach Peir traffic. In about the next two miles I chased them down and they left the next light with a determination to see me eat their dust. I get to the next light as one tries to say quietly but out of breathe," He's still there". I come off the next light and pass them as he slows to his buddy saying lonud enough for me to here that he missed his turn back there. I never looked back until I got about a mile up and entered the SART entrance to the right that I could see them still coming behind me about 100 ft. That was now about 15- 18 miles into my ride- I finished a few hours later at 75 miles. I think I am just riding too hard for a long distance pace- like a marathon runner hitting a wall and colapsing.

ps- I also do not wear any padded crotch biking shorts. Just a plain ol seat I bought from a bike shop a few years back for about $40. I am also on an old steel bike that my hands start to cramp from vibration, actually my whole body starts to fatigue from the vibration. I have never been on a new technology bike but I have had alot of people tell me they ride magnificent and damper alot of the fatigue away. I happen to be a retired NASCAR crewcheif (driver development level- with a few titles under my belt I might add) so I am no stranger to fabrication and chassis dynamics as well as the use of carbon fiber componants and their dampering benefits. With al that said, I think I would just get bored riding any longer distance. I like running to the grocery store, not driving across country if you get my drift- I think with that said Im doing fine with what I have and how Im doing it. Was just a inquisitive statement I made on how you guys do it- Im not made up for that long distance stuff- back included( and I donlt see getting everything I carry into a seat pouch. I did by a large water container for my downtube and that helps with about 2 1/2 bottles of water off my back. Spare tubes, tools, chain tool, a few wrenchs and allens multi tools,lunch, change of clothes (Ie bathing suit, extra tee shirt, sweatshirt) wallet keys, remote, spare change for air pump machines or phone calls, sometimes a measuring tape and a notebook for job related stuff instead of driving(I plan my rides to fit into work needs sometimes) It all adds up to weight I can not do without.

Ill end this nivel with saying it it may just come down to fitness and developing these muscles more, but as stated I have worked out my entire life. I didnt just get up off the sofa a few months ago, I am very fit for my age- have always been active and a major snow skier as well as scuba diver, etc etc

sakeed123

Curious afterthought- Are there many endurance riders over 200 lbs? I know alot of sports makeup for body size to fall into a certain perameter- most pros usually are stamped out like a cookie cutter. it apears most of the tour de france guys are something like 170 or less? I see a forum on here where they call 200 lbs riders Clydesdales (laughing). I am tall and thin (34"waist) but I weigh as stated a Budweiser tipping 234lbs. I donlt know alot of 150 lb guys that say their fetet hurt after walking a swapmeeet for 4 hours like up heavier people do- I think that myay have something to do with this bicycle endurance body makeup. ?
Anyways, interesting thoughts for me tonight. Every sport has it's groove.

Machka 

sakeed123,

1. Water ... carry it in water bottle holders on the bicycle, not in a backpack. Refill at convenience stores, public toilets, etc. along the way. Aim to drink about 750 ml per 1 to 1.5 hours.

2. Nutrition ... aim to consume 200-300 calories per hour. You burn approx. 500-600 calories per hour, so consuming half that each hour will not cause weight gain, but will keep you going for a long time.

3. If you're all about speed, and distance doesn't matter to you ... and if, as you say, "but I feel for my personal goals the century rides are not needed" ... then why did you respond to this thread, in the Long Distance forum, about riding 300 miles in a day??

After skimming through all the rest of the inapplicable stuff in your post, you do say, "Was just a inquisitive statement I made on how you guys do it", and to that I'll respond with ... we ride lots.

Enjoy the type of cycling you do! And have you been to the Road Forum? That forum would probably suit you and the type of cycling you do quite well.
https://www.bikeforums.net/forumdispl...1-Road-Cycling

Dudelsack 

LSD = either Long Slow Distance or Long Steady Distance.

It sounds like the poster needs to slow down and smell the roses. If he wants to go long distances, I'd suggest he carry a camera and force himself to take at least ten interesting pictures on his ride. He also needs to allow people to pass him. If nothing else it would be a lesson in humility.

DXchulo

I've seen plenty of bigger guys out there. You'll probably never be a great climber, but there's nothing about being big that means you can't do long rides.

Meanwhile, I wouldn't say you need to go painfully slow and smell the flowers all the time, but there is a difference between your maximum endurance pace and the maximum pace you can sustain for 1-2 hours. Basically you want to know what LT feels like and not spend much time above it if you plan on riding all day. It just takes practice and experience to get everything right. You need to know your limits, you need to know that your bike is set up properly and you have the right saddle, you need to know how many calories are ideal for you per hour, you need to know if there are certain foods that upset your stomach, etc.

Like you, I was in great shape before I started riding and I felt like I could do 5-6 hours without any problems. I might be dead tired at the end, but I could do it. For me, I always hit a wall around the 8-hour mark because it took me a long time to figure out how many calories I could take in per hour (I was eating too many) and what things I could eat that wouldn't upset my stomach. It took a lot of trial and error for me before I could comfortably complete a double.

sakeed123

I guess my real question in looking in here and posting "I don;t know how you guys do it?" is that I am wondering if the longer rides at a slower pace wpuld benefit me in conditioning and physique over just doing the shorter rides to the max. Got nothing to do with humility as I stated it might sound arrogant but it was to appropriately discribe my riding charateristics compared to others I come accross in my journeys- I do ALWAYS push myself. its about a workout to me.

So... as someone mentioned this LSD (which I had to look up and means Long Slow Distance) which may in fact help with increased shorter ride speeds and overall endurance, then maybe it would be good for me once a week to venture out in an LSD and mix up my workout- THats why I inquired and posted here because what I am doing will not take me further than those distances without my speeds dropping in pain- just like lifting weights until you are spent? You are done and then its recovery time thats needed.

I know I could ride a bike all day if needed if I took a 30 min break in every 2 hour interval and probably kept my pace to about 14 mph or under, but is that giving me a workout like I am doing this for? Or is what I am doing better for overall conditioning and fitness?

Homeyba

Sorry buddy but, Yes you have a nutrition problem.
First off, let me give you long distance nutrition 101. When you exercise your body starts to divert blood from your digestive processes to your muscles. The harder your effort, the less blood there is to aid your digestive process. You are eating foods that are difficult to digest to begin with. Then with the effort you were talking about putting out, do you know how much of those apples and tuna fish sandwich get digested and turned into fuel for your body? Not much. Your body is only capable of digesting 200-300 calories per hour/(as Machka stated) while exercising. You're running at a calorie deficit no matter what you do. If you are eating difficult to digest foods the deficit gets bigger.

Second, You may be pushing yourself to hard. You can put out maximum effort on long distance rides/races but you have to allow your body to recover. The further you push yourself into the red zone the long that recovery period is. By recovery I don't mean getting off the bike and sitting. I mean riding at a recovery pace. Doing long distances is all about knowing your body and adjusting your effort accordingly.

Third, I'm 6'3", 220-240 (depending on donut intake) and 50 years old. I've done the Race Across America 4 times as well as a bunch of shorter ultra-distance races, have one transcontinental record and a few shorter race records so I don't want to hear the "old, big man" excuse.

Long distance events are 95% mental. If you don't have the proper mental out-look you'll never finish a long ride. I started doing long distance races on a 1971 Peugeot, there is nothing wrong with older steel bikes. You just have to do some simple things to mitigate their deficiencies. If your seat doesn't work get another one. It doesn't matter if its a $10 seat or a $200 seat, if it doesn't work it doesn't work.

Homeyba

If you want to be slow then sure, train slow. That works! You'll be slow. Just because you do long distances doesn't mean you have to be slow.

sakeed123

Who's making excuses? I was asking a question you still haven't answered. It appears that you are doing endurance races as a hobby and have got it down to a science as for speed and diet. I thought you are riding these 300 mile events without any major stops, just quick restroom breaks and meal intakes then back going again as in a pitstop race fashion. I guess I am wrong in my assumption. THATS WHY I ASKED HOW ON EARTH ARE YOU GUYS DOING IT because I assume you are riding hard all the way. I also listed that I choose to ride hard for fitness and when my muscles give out I stop and recover for the day- that usually happens within 40 miles of very hard riding. I get my workout and I explained what I am doing- I now see what you guys are doing- so then I move on and ask the questions----

quote from above:[So... as someone mentioned this LSD (which I had to look up and means Long Slow Distance) which may in fact help with increased shorter ride speeds and overall endurance, then maybe it would be good for me once a week to venture out in an LSD and mix up my workout- THats why I inquired and posted here because what I am doing will not take me further than those distances without my speeds dropping in pain- just like lifting weights until you are spent? You are done and then its recovery time thats needed.

I know I could ride a bike all day if needed if I took a 30 min break in every 2 hour interval and probably kept my pace to about 14 mph or under, but is that giving me a workout like I am doing this for? Or is what I am doing better for overall conditioning and fitness? ]

Care to give any positive feedback to these questions? I do know this is working for me fitness wise, but am wondering if the occational LSD in the fashion of better eating habits that day and slower pace to do a 100mile ride be as beneficial as just doing the shorter 2 hour burst workouts I am doing- am I just wasting time on more of a long leasure stroll to get the same outcome? I am not prepping for any long distance endurance competition, just came in here inquiring as to how and why others ride far and it appears just that- for competition. like I said, I choose fitness and alot of times time is of the essence for me so I need to do it in shorter bursts- BUT will the ramdon longer slower ride when time is fitting benefit me?

Homeyba

Sorry I should have put a smiley face after the excuse comment. I didn't mean for that to be insulting.

I'm not a fan of LSD. I think it's a waste of time. You do need to have recovery rides but they don't have to be long. Just like you don't have to train long distances to do them.

How do you do it??? That is a huge question that books have been written on. Just so you know, on a 24-48hr race where I'm riding 300-500 miles I don't get off the bike unless I absolutely have to. Back to your question. The first thing you need to know is that everyone is different and there are lots of ways to skin this cat. But, there are some generalities that are constant.
Nutrition: 200-350 calories/hr is what you need to be taking in. This needs to be easily digested foods (often liquid). The harder your effort the lower that number is! It's a little counter-intuitive. There are lots of good fuels out there that you do not have to get off your bike to use. Perpetuem, Spiz, Ensure, and Boost are a few. Water and electrolyte intake are also critical. This is very individual so experimenting is the way to learn here.

Effort:No, you cannot ride at 100% for 300 miles. There is a limited supply of fuel in your body. Once it's used up you're done until you can replenish your reserves. You can ride at something like 60% for that distance with short bursts to 100%. If you get yourself into the "red" zone (this is different for everyone) it will take a long time to recover. This just takes experience and knowing your body. A HRM is useful for a lot of people. You don't need to ride 14mph to be able to ride all day. I've done 200kms (118 miles) in 4hrs and 45 minutes. That's hardly 14mph.

Training: My training rides are in the 30-50 mile range during the week with a long ride on the weekend 70-100miles. I alternate between climbing, interval training and recovery rides. I'll go out and do some doubles and night rides. That's it.

StephenH

I run around 210-215 at the moment. The guy I was riding with yesterday said he's running around 265 right now. Bigger guys may not have the ideal physique for this, but that never stopped anyone. If you're shorter and do a bunch of distance riding, you'd likely drop under 200 lbs.

Dudelsack 

So if I go out on a 60 mile "training ride" at a conversational pace, I'm just wasting my time (from a 'training' standpoint)?

Homeyba

60 miles isn't a long ride. If you want to do that and/or are just having a fun ride with your buddies then no. It's not a waste of time. It's just not going to be beneficial in making you faster or better. I know a lot of people who ride a huge number of miles every year but still struggle to make control times on brevets. If you are happy with the speed you are doing, you are making cut-offs and getting plenty of sleep on multi-day brevets then you don't need to get faster and the status-qua is just fine. If you are looking to improve and get faster then yes, it's a waste of time.

Don't get me wrong, I do recovery rides too. But they are not generally that long. You can have just an effective recovery ride at 30 miles. 60 miles at a "conversational" pace is not training.

DXchulo

Sakeed, I think you'd benefit from doing one long ride a week at a slower pace than you're doing right now. That doesn't mean you have to ride slow, it just means that the pace needs to be sustainable. Like Homey said, you can't spend too much time in the red, but my goal for a long ride is always to stay as close to that red line as possible. It's a fine line and it takes practice to know where the line is. There is a difference between riding that line and riding "slow" distance.

Meanwhile, you don't need to stop doing hard rides during the rest of the week. Those will actually keep your endurance pace higher.

drmweaver2

FWIW, there is at least one RBA who weighs more than I do (~230-240) who has earned the Mondial Award (> 40, 000km in RUSA/ACP events) https://www.rusa.org/award_mond.html. He's told me that while it took him longer, he's positive it can be earned in 4 years. He also said he "proved" it could be earned without ever having to ride >600kms at a time; he's never ridden/completed a 1000 or 1200k afaik.

sakeed123

Homeyba, thank you for the nutrition info- Liquid diet it is then on longer rides- I will try that advice. I still am not interested in pacing a longer ride if I have to slow for it. I would rather ride as hard as I can til I drop as I have been doing.

DXchulo- I understand what you mean by sustainable but I am more a progressive decrease in speed as I tire until I feel its time to quit and I am just not benefitting anymore other than just clocking miles for lets say bragging rights in my own book. I don;t feel "I" personally am getting any benefit after that point . I know I hit a wall with my type of riding and nutrition at about 60 miles. I will see if a change of calorie intake will change that at all. The few rides I did ride longer were what I would call "make up the miles rides" where I feel I was falling off my 100 miles per week or 400 miles per month goal due to other commitments. That had me looking more towards doing this in fewer longer rides where I much rather do daily 25-30 mile rides like I experienced over the holiday season with beautiful weather. I clocked over 150 that week and loved it riding 5 days a week. I guess if I only have one day a week sometimes then I will try to focus on nuutrition and see if I can sustain my current style for a longer duration. Something in life I could see doing every day if I were retired- biking has its adventures.

Thank you all for the education
Dean

Rowan

It's NOT long slow distance, it's long steady distance.

The speed you maintain is comparative to your fitness.

A rider with a relatively low level of fitness will ride at a slow pace; a fit person will ride at a much higher pace consistently through his/her ride; and a very fit person will ride at a higher pace again consistently through his/her ride. There might be 5 to 10mph difference in the paces from low fitness to very fit.

It is usually a pre-season, early-season training regimen designed to get the muscles and cardiovascular system working and improving their efficiency over long distances. It also enables riders to get used to or change their "interface" with their bicycles -- make changes that improve comfort. In that sense, a rider will improve their fitness and their speed over longer rides -- because they will be more comfortable doing so, their cardiovascular and muscle efficiency will improve, and their roadcraft and style will be better.

The usual method is to start transitioning from long steady distance to a variety of other training options that may include interval training (to improve speed over longer distances) and hillclimbing or gym work to improve leg strength and endurance. LSD can continue to improve speed, but there needs to be a concentrated effort to ensure the effort is ramped up appropriately across each ride. I agree that intervals are likely to improve speed for time spent on the bike.

Part of this scenario also involves rest to enable the damaged muscle fibres to repair and actually increase their strength. Lack of rest can result in a drop-off in performance ranging from mild to severe.

Homeyba

Long steady makes sense Rowan. Thanks for clarifying that.

joewein

Think about runners instead of cyclists for a moment. When you want to complete a marathon, don't run it like a sprinter.

Both sprinting and marathon running is "hard", but the speed is not the same. Sure, you could start out a marathon at a much faster pace than you're capable of sustaining for 42 km, but then you'd be toast long before the 42 km are up. When you're going for distance, you need to do it at a speed you can sustain throughout. How fast that is depends on your body and your level of training. By adjusting speed, you can sustain the effort for much longer.

sakeed123

Thnak you, I already understand that hence why I stated I choose to ride all out for as long as a I can and assumed these long endurance races were doing the same level. To take your example- there are marathon racers, and there are marathon runners, Racers go all out the entire marathon running 4 min miles which is a "sprint" in most peoples book- I look at this forum of "Long distance Competition" as a level of guys going all out for long distance when I said the comment "I don't know how you guys are doing it". I now see you guys are not the Tour de France type riders averaging 24 mph over long distance. Even though they run stages they are still riding hard every day for about a month which is the most demanding bike race in the world. I am sure they do not train to sustain, they go all out. Even though I am not looking to race, I am looking to train for fitness just like I weight train. Sprinting on foot is about 100yd races, whereas a marathon is 26 miles. Sprinting on a bike in comparison is about 1/2 mile as opposed to 100 miles marathon. My 30 mile(average distance ride for me) high intensity rides are hardly a sprint or doing a max 1 time bench press, it is I feel a standard interval distance of high intensity training to build fitness and endurance. I would not know how anyone is doing more than this unless they are a professional and eat sleep and breathe it which I believe most of you do not. I now see you all ride these distances at a "sustained pace" unlike the Tour De France riders. I was thining to myself, wow, most people into bikes can ride like this for 200 or even 300 miles? not me. Now I know.

(edit)- i just want to also add that it also puzzled me when I started seeing peoples GPS printouts of rides showing their distance and average speeds------to later find out that most of you disable the timer on the gps when you stop, I was like WTF, Ill do that by sprinting from stop light to stop light, then rest until I am ready to sprint again and people will think I am a god. I see its all about learning any sport and how people interpet things or want them to be interpeted. I think this is my reason for coming into here and asking for clarifications. I was looking for common goals in human fitness to see what how I am comparing in fitness or an I pushing myself too hard or maybe need to harder. What is my potential capability. Its like driving a car where you thinik you are fast then another vehicle screams by you- it inspired yo thinking, wow, that can be done with the right equipment and training. Never hurts to ask questions but I often take with a grain of salt what I have read on forums over the years.

Here's a recent post in the So Cal forums about a New Years Day ride I was going to go check out but ended up staying up most of the night- Here's a guys quote ont he results. I find it hard to believe the whole most of the group averaged over 22 mph for 85 miles as the poster states-

Rowan

Your reading hasn't taken you very far in your understanding of any aspect of the sport, has it?

For a start, TdF stages except time trials are NOT run at high intensity for the entire distance. To understand this, look at the breakaways that attempt to ride in the red zone, but in almost every case, they are overtaken by the peloton that has been working together at a lower intensity, but by using drafting, is able to sustain a higher speed.

30 miles is NOT a standard interval distance. Not even the pros would ride like this.

You also will find that in randonneuring, people usually state their ride times as elapsed times. After all, on any randonnee, you have a time limit based on a minimum average speed that keeps ticking away while you are stopped.

Perhaps you should go back to reading material thatis relevant to LD cycling, absorb it, and ride some real LD events. Otherwise, your discussion is basically irrelevant.

sakeed123

My bad for thinking 24mph average at TDF was high intesity- Thanks Rowan for teaching me its not...whatever

Machka 

Have a look at the records on the UMCA website for 12 and 24 hour events ...

https://www.ultracycling.com/sections...s/stats/timed/

You'll notice that the shortest distance on the records list for a 24-hour event is 427 miles. 300 miles doesn't rate. In fact, if you scroll down, some of the 12 hour records come close to 300 miles.