Heathpack 

I am no shrinking violet.

It's an odd conversation, though. I'm trying to explain that when his dog passes out, it's because the dog's heart stops beating for a period of time. Without a pacemaker, eventually one day the heart will stop beating & not start up again. This makes little impression on the guy, though, he wants me to just focus on the limping!

Hermes

He can answer that specifically...all I know is that I heard it is legal for a tandem team to hang on to a passing car during a TT in NC. Just saying.

Racer Ex 

I think he learned his lesson in Mexico. In his defense he was one of several people who went Nibali on that climb.

110+ Tandem RR and TT. Had a good ride a couple of years ago, see if we can make lightning strike twice.



Podium had some talented competition. 2 x Olympian, former elite national RR champ, and a guy who won his AG in the individual TT.

Was going to do the crit as well solo but they don't have a day off between any of the events. Because it's only nationals and it's not like anyone might want to race all three events after flying all the way across the country. The RR profile looks like shark's teeth. Doing the crit the day after would not be fun and seeing as we still don't know what the TT course is like...

shovelhd

Excellent. Say hi to Big M for me. Are you going to use the same bike and refit it for each event?

Racer Ex 

Yeah. While there's no such thing as too many bikes, two road racing tandems might be teetering on making that a reality. Now a track tandem...

Hermes

35 riders attended the beginner track session yesterday.

Safety / track rules lecture
30 lap warmup
incidental contact drills - side by side bumping and old fashioned Madison push. I use the Madison push because it requires the rider to do two things at once - control the bike and put in power while giving another rider a slight push in the back to propel him ahead.
Break up into teams and do 3x4 lap team pursuits learning to exchange riders every 1/2 lap and ride in a pace line.
The entire group goes out as a large peloton and the same teams go off the front to take a lap on the field on my whistle. Each team got three chances.
Final effort of the day was a flying 200 meter. I put one rider out at a time with two lap to go. On the final lap, the rider accelerates as fast as possible to the 200 meter start line and holds speed for 200 meters to the front stretch start finish line. Fastest time of the day was 12.7 done my a Stanford racer. He did a total of 4 flying 200 meters. I kept it going until everyone was too tired to do any more. I opened the track at 8AM and finished at 12:30PM.

I went to the gym and did an upper body workout and then to the nail salon for a mani / pedi. The lavender scrub is nice. This is a classic rooster in the henhouse experience and one cannot have any insecurities.

Heathpack 

@Hermes rocking the nail salon. Love it.

The track stuff sounds like fun. One of the guys I rode with today is Mr Singlespeed. Not the hipster kind, the roadie kind. I don't remember how the subject of the track came up but he was telling me how he went through the certification process and was sure he was going to love the track. But then he didn't. He was saying the certification stuff wasn't exactly fun, maybe he just rode with the wrong introductory guy.

Bandera

Or not, riding on the track is not casual Fun and only by demonstrating that one has the skills to be safe and capable of turning a right smart pace does one belong out there. It's pretty Darwinian, my 1st coach raced on the board tracks pre-WWII and winnowed out anyone who lacked the discipline, skills and speed early on, for which we all thanked him long term.

Having said that track racing is the heart and soul of cycling competition, participate if you can.
It's a lab for developing the speed, timing, power and efficiency that will pay off in other disciplines of the sport even if (like me) you are not a "trackie" but use(ed) the track for an advantage vs. the "specialist" (sprint-less climber) competition on the road.

PS: It is great fun too (once you get used to it) and there are very few left-turning-texting-drunk-drivers on the Velodrome.

-Bandera

Heathpack 

This particular guy is a very strong and capable cyclist. I'm 100% sure he has the discipline, skills and speed to ride the track. Sometimes you try something and it's just not your thing, rather than it being a matter of getting winnowed out. To each his own, that's why there's such a broad spectrum of types of cycling- because people naturally have different preferences and aptitudes.

Bandera

Cycle racing itself vs. recreational cycling and the various disciplines of Track, 'Cross, Road & MTB racing are all self-winnowing.
Track racing is the fastest and most technically demanding racing there is and certainly not for everyone in the sport, but essential IMHO.

As always: Suit Yourself and do as you please, lots of cycle racing disciplines out there to try/adopt/avoid.

PS: I gave up NORBA racing in '88, not good for my health.

-Bandera

Hermes

And some cyclists do not want to be instructed what to do. They want to do what they want to do when they want to do it. Or they have been told by someone else or watched a Youtube video and want to do it that way. I could go on and on about human behavior.

The fact is when one comes to my class, one has to do it my way at the pace I set with some flexibility. And they have to get through 3 classes with me or other instructors before they can attend an open session or race.

And some offer suggestions how to do something different or why not do it like so and so pro racer. The answer is this is the easiest and most basic way and although the option suggested is a more advanced technique it can be incorporated later.

And more to the point, let me offer the range of ability and knowledge that shows up at sessions either at Hellyer or Velo Sports Center. Out of 35 people, 6 had not been at the track before and never been on a fixed gear bike. The rest had been to more beginner sessions and some come every Saturday morning and use the session as a workout.

When we broke into teams, I asked how many knew what a pace line was. 3 never heard of a pace line. And riding in a pace line is one of the most basic skills that a cyclist must learn to train and race at the track. Riding in teams in a pace line and learning to exchange at the turns on the track is about 80% of the session. Even if someone said, I am never going to ride in a pace line at the track and only ride in the sprinters lane solo, we are not going to "certify" a cyclist for an open session without that skill. So that person has to suck it up and learn to ride in a pace line and get through the process and then he/she can go to an open session and only ride by himself.

And embedded in all the pace line team work is a lot of instruction about how to use the features of the track to control speed.

A woman, who attended for the first time and did not know what a pace line was and had a hard time getting her feet into the pedals was the most improved at the session. She executed the pace line work perfectly, looked total relaxed on the bike, did the contact drill work well and executed a good flying 200 meters. Bravo!

I can visualize a host of reasons why someone would not like the certification process or the track. I have not experienced a cyclist that could not master riding the track if the person put their mind to it. I do not see the track and its demands as a venue that culls cyclists and somehow determines the good the bad and the ugly. Now I have seen accomplished track racers and coaches discourage cyclists from trying many things for whatever their reason - IMO, a lot of this is judgmental BS that plagues our society - read Amy Cuddy. About 3 years ago, one of the supervisors / instructors who is a very experienced and accomplished track racer told a women that she would not amount to anything at the track and she should stick to road. She went on to become a successful track racer, won elite nationals track points race and is currently a pro track rider on one of the World Cycling Leagues teams. There is a man who is a poor judge of horseflesh or womentrackracerflesh.

Bandera

Failing the certification process you have which sounds like a very good and safe one, a rider would be winnowed out from competition would they not? >40 years ago: Same, same.

Experienced coaches operating in a well proven program assure a good racing environment for those who choose to participate in it.
Kudos to @Hermes for continuing the tradition of putting in the time and effort to keep the sport alive.


-Bandera

Heathpack 

Ok, so my comment was really intended to be a bit of a joke, that maybe some track instructors take the fun out of cycling. Because you are a track instructor. I was ribbing you.

The particular individual I mentioned is someone I rarely ride with, but am always really happy to see on a group ride. He is one of a super-mellow super-strong contingent in our town, a handful of guys who ride capably with anyone. They chat amiably with anyone on their ride. Ride road and frequently mountain bike. Have great gear, great fitness, great skills, great attitude. People I respect because they are fabulous ambassadors of the sport, easily crossing the lines of riding well with the Freds and the racers. They look after the weaker people without calling attention to themselves. Just zero attitude.

I was admiring the guy's newish Madone which has internal cabling. Our conversation was initially about some technical aspects of the internal cabling. I probably said something about how the cabling on my TT bike drives Mr. H crazy, but I was thinking about the track and at least he would not have to deal with brake cables. He mentioned that he'd tried the track and was sure in advance that he was going to love it, he was surprised he didn't, maybe it was just that he only did the certification and never gave it enough of a chance, he assumed the regular track efforts would be more fun. I commented that if I did it and loved it, maybe he should give it another try, we could carpool. He said he just might. Very normal conversation. Obviously my joke missed.

I see a lot of times people arguing in the world of training that people should work on their weakness and I agree with this a little. But mostly I think people should work on their strengths, because the better you become at what you're good at, the more you will enjoy it. So if I'm good at technical long-duration stuff that requires tons of focus and concentration, and that's what I enjoy, it makes sense for me to do that and not let other people define what is fun or ideal.

I don't believe this to the extent that I think you should not be open to trying new things. And in fact, its likely that I'm going to try some track stuff starting in July. Just that if I try it and don't like it, fair enough. Its not necessarily a matter of Darwinian survival.

Hermes

We do not fail riders. If there is failure, it would be due to breaking the code of conduct which is published on the website and there would be disciplinary action...not my job.

What happens in practice at Hellyer and Velo Sports Center and I suspect at other venues is that new riders take the courses. They determine whether they want to continue. At Velo Sports Center on the 250 meter wooden indoor track, one must be able to generate enough speed to keep from slipping off the banking, so I could see a cyclist that wants to do track but is not fit enough and is told that he/she needs to improve their fitness. That is not a problem at the 333 meter outdoor concrete tracks where one can ride 5 mph because the concrete offers enough friction.

The challenge for riders after they complete my class is what are they going to do next? They can race, attend an open session, attend a structured session or continue attending beginner sessions. Many keep going to the beginner sessions because they are Saturday morning, cheap and structured. They like the pace line work and other cool stuff we do.

Many newly minted beginners, after completing the program, go to an open session and find that they do not know what to do i.e. they need a workout. There is no one there to organize anything fun or interesting. All they can do is ride laps around the track unless they can find someone who wants to do something with them.

The structured sessions charge a fee in addition to the parking and regular ride fee. So parking is $6, ride fee is $5 and the session fee can be $12. So for a structured session, the fee is $23. There are some structured sessions that do not charge the session fee.

I do not see a winnowing process nor do we have a council that fails riders. I suspect if we have a rider that showed up and constantly failed in their ability to execute skills someone might have a talk with he/she which is why we have a supervisor at each session. Our venue is in a public park owned by the county. They want a welcoming environment where all people can show up and participate. IMO, Velo Sports Center in Carson is the same expect they are a private entity that is not tax payer subsidized. However, knowing the people very well who run the facility, they want new entrants to feel welcome and confident versus have a culture that somehow is perceived as winnowing down the field. One cannot grow ones customer base with a culture that winnows down the field.

Hermes

@Heathpack No problem. There is nothing more focused and long duration than the hour record and one must do that on a track, fixed gear, no brakes where 40% of the time one is making a left hand turn trying to stay on the black line.

BTW, even though you are female and will soon have to do 2K versus 3K pursuit as you age up, at LAVRA TTs, you can do a 4k individual pursuit which is almost a pro-log distance for a road time trial. Since it is around 5 to 6 minutes, you can ride the entire race at VO2 power...or not. In fact, you can do a team pursuit, 2k, 3k and 4k in same day and ride the individual pursuits as time trials logging 13k of racing.

sarals 

@Hermes, I wonder if the person who told the woman (who became a ranked track racer) is the same person who told me I was making a mistake (sic) by wanting to compete at the velodrome? Which is why I attended one beginner session only. Yes, I'll say it - he scared me off.

One of my teammates (Yvonne) strongly believes I'd do well at the track, doing the shorter races and perhaps pursuits. She knows me well, we've raced together often. However, I just can't make that bridge. Time constraints, the inability to be able to ride successive Saturdays for certification, focus elsewhere, the fear of too many irons in the fire. However, I won't rule it out. Not right now, though.

Bandera

I see, your class program is for safe access to a public facility by the interested general public, not a pre-requisite for USAC competition.
My bad.

-Bandera

Hermes

@sarals Maybe the same guy...it does not matter. The point is that there are guys like that in road and track who are not helpful but may be in a position of power or appear to be knowledgeable on the topic. And it is unfortunate that new riders interested in road and track get poor feedback and advice.

I am not a track salesman just offering the following...

One does not have to do 3 consecutive Saturday beginner sessions. One can do three over X months. One can do the intermediate structured sessions ("ISS") with one beginner session and they even offer rental bikes I know you have a track bike and would not need a bike. The ISS will count as a beginner session. The session that I did on Saturday was followed by a Penvelo day at the track. There were 3 or more Penvelo racers in my session as well as a Penvelo racer who helped out as a mentor.

I suspect you could have done my session and the PV session and you would have completed your three "beginner" sessions. And I get that you may have had a schedule conflict but it would have been an ideal time to go to the track and learn and practice with your teammates.

IMO, what could you do at the track? Anything that you want to do.

What are the opportunities?

Beat the Clock Penvelo Day at the track
Masters District championships by age group all races.
Other timed events as announced
Women's only clinic (coming up)
Future ISS days
Wednesday night racing
PCC sprint clinics
Monday night PCC structured session

I am sure that there is more that I am omitting.

Let's talk about the 3 beginner sessions as a gatekeeper. The goal is to organize a session that has rental bikes available, a trained instructor plus helpers to instruct new riders on how to ride the track so that they can then race and attend other sessions. 3 sessions seems like enough for a rider to learn the basics. Graduation is done on an honor system.

How would someone know if one actually did 3 sessions. If you show up at one of my open or structured sessions and I do not know you, I would ask you if you have done three beginner sessions. If you said yes and met the other license qualifications, such as cat 1,2,3 and cat 3,4 then you are good to go. If you are short on any of the requirements, the supervisor has broad authority to allow attendance.

The goal at the track is if one shows up or asks to participate in a session (requests approval), we try to find a way to allow them to participate within limits.

Hermes

No. There is no bad on your part. We run USAC racing too and one must complete 3 beginner sessions before racing. And sometimes we offer additional sessions for new riders who want more practice prior to racing. These get ready to race sessions feature more practice racing.

Hermes

Many tracks around the country are located within county parks. Marymoore in Seattle and San Diego in Balboa Park is another. Trexlertown is also in a park but the park leased the facility back to an association that was funded by a donor that capitalized the track with a large endowment.

When I raced masters nationals at Marymoore, one entered Marymoore park and had to pay for parking. The velodrome was unlocked and no one was there to oversee activity or collect a ride fee. There was a sign that said road bikes must yield to track bikes. We allow road bikes on the track but not at the same time as track bikes.

The county requires our association to have a supervisor at every session for both training and racing. If there is no supervisor, the track is locked. So if a promoter, schedules a USAC race, he must line up USAC officials plus a track supervisor unless the promoter is also a track supervisor.

At times it seems like overkill but it seems to work.

sarals 

@Hermes, thanks!

I actually wanted to go to the last PV Hellyer session, the club really punched up going there, but I had schedule conflicts. I don't think any of the PV women do track, I may be wrong, but I don't mind that. Once things settle down after Sea Otter and I see what the NCNCA schedule holds for me, I will try to get in a Saturday track session - with Coach's okay, of course!

By the way, calling that POS I have a track bike is a stretch! Honestly, I haven't even ridden it, yet.

Hermes

Too bad about the schedule conflict.

Also, I can schedule and hold sessions any time I want as long as there is time available on the calendar.

So if you want a masters women day at the track, we could do that. I have broad authority to run sessions at the track with the proviso that I cannot run a private session and sessions have to be approved and put on the master schedule. So, we could run a masters women beginner session with rental bikes available with no beginner class requirements. Open only to women.

In reality, if elite women show up, we would let them participate. Why not?

Keep in mind that the more beginner one makes the session, then we have to do all the stuff I do at a regular beginner clinic. Ostensibly, we are offering another beginner session.

Or one can make the session require one beginner session as a pre-requisite. This assures that someone has been to the track before and at least can get on and off the track bike and has ridden in a pace line fixed gear no brakes.

Yvonne has been to the track but I am not sure about others on PV. I suspect there are other masters women who would try the track if it was easier and more focused toward them versus going to a general beginner session. Hey we can name the session after you!

sarals 

Don't do that! The NCNCA Master's Women 55+ Series is already named after me, and that's quite enough!!

Hermes, seriously - GREAT idea. I'll bounce that off the Committee and see what comes up.

We have a few PV women who might be interested. I'll throw the idea up on the PV email and see who expresses interest. I do know there were no takers in the last PV track session, but there was a conflict. We had a Team Ride and a Team Training Session scheduled for the women that same week.

globecanvas

Some really interesting conversation over the last few pages! Makes me wish I'd been around more to participate.

I was thinking just yesterday about how irritating it must be for even a talented woman to race, much less a beginner. A local friend is fast and unbelievably enthusiastic, all she ever talks about is bikes and racing. She works hard, she's good at it, and all she ever wants to do is ride and race her bike. She's a road and cross 3. On Strava (yes, I enjoy Strava, it's a fun way to see what all my friends are up to) I see she did a training crit this week, lasted 20 minutes with the pack, and then spend a half hour doing circles at 17 mph. In my world that would be a thoroughly depressing outcome and I'd mope around all week, but she was happy to have hung in with the men for almost half the race. The mental requirements for women to enjoy racing are just totally different than they are for men. If she weren't so optimistic and enthusiastic by nature there's no way she would stick with it. It sucks that this is how it is for women who race, but there's one odd side effect: it creates a much more rigorous personality filter than the one men have to pass through. Why would any woman keep racing unless she's unnaturally motivated and enthusiastic?

On another topic, I've been seeing a sports doctor/PT every other day for a bizarre muscle pain situation that I'm mostly recovered from now, thanks in large part to incredibly helpful and thoughtful advice from @Heathpack. The doc/PT is very well regarded, he's the guy people go to in the area. We've had plenty of time to chat since I've been on his table for hours each week. At the last session we were talking about the mechanics of muscle damage and he said "you know, HGH is actually good for you," and went on to talk about how the new USAC rules about requiring endocrinology or whatever in order to get a TUE for steroids are not a big deal. I took the conversation somewhere else but I'm about 80% sure he was offering me a path to doping. Unsolicited. Negatively solicited, even, because in the past I've talked about how I don't even take vitamins or protein supplements.

shovelhd

That's really scary.

I'm glad to hear you're on the right path healing. HP is good people.