Heathpack 

The interesting implication of all this is that from a neurologic standpoint, you should probably always do more. The brain just gets better and better with practice. Unless you get to the point of actually doing yourself harm, in which case your brain may learn that cycling is actually dangerous. It makes me wonder if that is what over-training actually is. Hard to come back from because your non-psychological brain takes the attitude of "see? I told you so" and now really clamps down and over-modulates everything, as a protective mechanism. Again, I have no idea from experience, just speculating.

Muscle, on the other hand, is actually damaged by exercise- its broken down and then rebuilt better, over and over. The trick is doing just enough so that you can not only do today's workout but the next one you have in the pipeline with sufficient time to recover. So as far as improving muscle function goes, you should probably do the least training that will still have a positive effect. It makes me think that this is maybe why periodized training works over steady training. Say you have a three-weeks-on-then-one-week off type of training plan. You can spend the first two weeks riding more sustainably as far as the muscles go, then go all-out in the third week, maybe over-doing if from a muscular standpoint but training your brain to accept a new level of what is possible. Then a light week to let the muscles recover from all that so that you can keep going. Versus steady training which would have to be more conservative because of the necessity for muscle recovery, you can never push things enough to sufficiently train the brain.

Haha, who knows though? You can develop all kind of theories in your own mind as to how things work and guess what? They can be totally wrong.

LAJ

Holy crap. Amazing posts.

Thank you

happybday29475

Every now and then in BF land you come across nuggets like today's discussion...and my faith in the entire internet is restored! Great stuff all!

I've come to the conclusion that one of my biggest limiters is some of this neurological stuff. (Well that and ice cream).

shovelhd

It's still damn fast.

Racer Ex 

I have folks do sprint drills after 3 hard hours not because it will improve their sprint, but because they will know what is possible after three hard hours, what it will feel like, and how much they have left.

Everyone has a breaking point. Bike racing is no different than torture in that it creates mental and physical pain. The ability to endure or transcend this is more often what determines finishing order, vs. physiology. This can be trained. But:

Chris Hoy said that there was no way you could sustain 100% effort constantly, year after year. I agree. The brain needs, at times, an opportunity to associate the bike with something other than pain. Or just some time away from that focus.

As a coach I spend a lot of time reading between the lines, and I get as much out of a few lines in a narrative than I do looking at a power file. Where people are at mentally is as important as where they are at physically. You can win still races if your body is at 80% if your brain is at 100%.

In "Boy Racer" Mark Cavendish said he got more out of Shane Smith "blowing smoke up his arse" then he did out of scientific training. What Shane was doing was reinforcing the things that Cavendish thought might be true, but had doubts. What was possible. You can make it over the Poggio. You can win MSR.

Having that programmed makes it possible to take one more water boarding.

That program has to be reality based though. The chimp is good at detecting BS.

The other mental aspect that gets hugely shorted is "simple" preparation. People will spend months training for an event yet ignore the course profile and competition. They will pass on going to a 56t big ring for a TT with a 50 MPH descent.

A lot of this is driven by what I call the "good excuse" factor. And that's driven by doubt, and the inability to accept limitations. "I'll miss the selection anyway so why bother" subconscious. I'm pretty OK with giving 100% and accepting that someone is just simply better. A lot of folks aren't.

revchuck 

Yup, on both counts. I have nothing to add, but am lock-wired in receive mode.

shovelhd

I'm one of those guys that have won a bunch of races by attacking the field and staying away to win solo. This kind of effort requires a strong physical foundation, that much is obvious, but there are plenty of strong guys in the field that can beat me. It requires good tactical sense as to when and where to attack, which comes with time and experience, and the willingness to burn matches to fail. But what it takes more than anything is commitment. I check in the first 10 seconds to see if anyone is on my wheel, by looking down. I do not look back for at least 30 seconds. That's usually when the lactic sets in. If I look back and see that the field isn't lined out chasing, that's when I flip the commitment switch.

They say that you should always train harder than you race. This is good in theory, and for me, a reality in practice to some extent. I don't coast a lot when I'm doing intervals, and I work hard at conserving energy when racing, so there's that. However, for me at least, I am not mentally capable of training at the level after I flip the commitment switch. I can get close, and for shorter durations, but without the race scenario, I can't do it. Once that switch is flipped, it's like there's a stopwatch showing tenths of seconds dominating my thoughts. Every breath, every movement, every thought is front and center. I'm talking to myself constantly, looking for a dip in the road to rest my legs for a stroke, where to set up my lines for the next corner, how long before I risk taking a look back. Fighting back the impulse to acknowledge the pain. Its just go. The clock is ticking. Just go. Time is flying by yet it seems like slow motion. I can't figure out how to duplicate all that in training. I don't know if it's me or if it's humanly possible. Doesn't really matter, I know I can't do it.

Hermes

Thanks for the props.

Working with the motor on the indoor track with an experienced operator changes the metrics. With practice, it is relatively easy to ride on the motor (not behind a another rider in a motor pace line) at 32 mph. As the speed increases beyond that, skill and leg speed become a premium. For the last lap the motor hits the top speed and one dives off the 45 degree banking from behind the motor. So there is the acceleration and boost in power from the banking. BTW, 45 degrees looks like a wall not banking. Now the power surges to whatever is required for the speed but one only has to hold speed and not accelerate so the metabolic task is easier.

Contrast that to a flying 200 meters that one self propels to 38 mph. Well, even with the banking it takes a lot of energy to get to 38 mph. My best self propelled speed is more like 34 mph average over 200 meters which I think puts me in the high twelves. Contrast that to racers who can do 42 to 44 mph over 200 meter self propelled doing it in the low elevens.

IBOHUNT

5% downhill grade number for me.
Dag gum fast

I'm there as well. Some great stuff here.

sarals 

Detail, that's what I'm reading now. This has been a great discussion.

I can NOT duplicate race pace or environment on a training ride. I can to a degree on a fast group ride with guys (but they're not racers, so they don't sustain those hard efforts). The only way I can get that race kill-myself-but-you're-still-alive-so-go-harder kind of effort is IN a RACE.

The race last weekend kept me in that do or die mindset and maximum or close to it physical effort for most of the 1:23 it took for me to do it. It was confirmed yesterday when I did the first real recovery ride I've done this year - TSS was 18 for 55 minutes. I knew I had done something the day before.

Racer Ex 

I guess everybody quit.

<crickets>

IBOHUNT

Bad weather here. No riding for me in a while.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Rule 9 blah blah blah

Hermes

I am about 0% right. And all my workouts are confidential that others would probably find boring anyway.

However, my new SRM with the Q-rings is kick ass.

shovelhd

I'm on the plan and ready to race tomorrow. Stacked field.

revchuck 

Nah.

I did a Carmichael field test (2x8') last Sunday on the TT bike, ended up right at the same number as on the road bike...which I haven't tested on in a while. I was frankly surprised, thought it would've been lower. Low end Z2 on Monday, TNW on Tuesday night - when else? - wherein I stayed with the group for seven minutes of which the last one was at 23-24 mph pulling into a 10-15 mph headwind with me thinking "WTF am I doing?"; those seven minutes plus the one that followed equaled my efforts on Sunday. Wednesday morning I had two sets of nine minute O/Us (2/1/2/1/2/1) with the under being threshold and the over at 120%. The best eight minutes of each of those sets were right at my results from Sunday. Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small FTPs. Tomorrow is supposed to be either the team hammer ride or 4x6' versions of the same O/Us above; I'm definitely doing the hammer ride and will try to do the intervals as well. Some two hour plus endurance rides scheduled, then recovery starts Thursday.

nacler22

One Trick Pony............train hard, or post.

Today was easy. I completed some tire rolling tests at varying pressures. Got some interesting (good?) data. Then one hard opener.

Tomorrow starts my laconic season of XC. The real fun starts in May.

Edit; Registration is closed, and USAC has me placing last..............no pressure.



suckers

LAJ

This Week:

Tuesday, work commute then 4x10's Z4 5' rbi, 105' total. TT Bike
Weds, Weights, and I've been instructed to go to 3x15 reps, instead of the 5x5 reps with heavier weight. Work commute, then a set of 5, which included 4' Z4 at 100-115 rpm, 1' rbi. That hurt. 80' total. TT Bike
Thursday, I drove to work, then 3x10' at Z4, 5' rbi. Alternating 2 minutes sitting, 2 minutes standing per rep. 90 minutes total. Reg bike.
Off today.
Sat, 3x15 Z4 2.5 hours, or so. Weights after. Reg bike.
Sunday, 3x10' 10' rbi. Each set consists of 40" Z5, 20" easy, enough to keep the bike upright. Finish off with enough to total 5.5 hours on the bike, endurance/tempo, head for the Peak to Peak Highway. No more than 20% recovery pace, or I'll get in trouble. Reg bike.

Rest week next week.

My next TT isn't until May 15th, so it will be ugly for a bit.

The hip feels good, and the final follow-up x-ray is on May 29th. I wanted to get it before the year limit on the USAC insurance in case it's necro, but my gut says it's OK.

valygrl

LAJ - remind me, do you have a coach or are you self-coached? Tough week.


.... I race today, start time, 7:35am, temp - 28 now. darn.

shovelhd

You racing at Bethel? Good luck.

LAJ

Good luck this morning, valygrl!

A friend wanted to practice on me. I initially resisted, as I was going back to Brevet's and the like. Next thing I know, I had a schedule in my email inbox. As it turns out, I'm very happy he insisted.

Hermes

Track workout Thursday morning followed by leg strength training in the evening.

Hermes

@LAJ Very happy to hear your hip is better. That was a tough injury to recover from. Props for the hard work and perseverance.

LAJ

Thank you @Hermes. The bike part wasn't as big of a challenge as the rest of the life part.

Hermes

3.5 hour endurance ride with wife. Forgot my chain today. Everything felt easy.

sarals 

+1!!!