JRCurzon

Now I know this is a big point of contention, but I would be interested in knowing if anyone owned a Carbon Full-Sus and knew how it compared to an Aluminium Hardtail in terms of percentages faster round a course. For this question to be answered, the person would need to have ridden both bikes round the same course using Strava. Why am I asking? I'm trying to figure out how close I would be to the top of the leader boards if I had a better bike, since I appear to have hit a wall in terms of shaving off time from laps. Thanks

Kindaslow

I have both, but one is a SS and the other a 1x11. One of my local favorite areas has 5 different trails that I know my times on, each of these are shorter trails, with the longest trail being about 15 minutes. I am only using a watch, but I believe I have a point that could be valuable to you. That is, it is more dependent on the trail/bike relationship than I would have originally thought (I am faster on some with the fully rigid and faster on others with the dual squish). The fully rigid is way faster if there are lots of hills, but none are too steep, and not that many obstacles that the suspension bike can attack and the fully rigid needs to avoid, per se, to keep momentum. In other words, it depends on where you are riding.

NYMXer

I agree with kindaslow, the trail is really the determining factor here. You wouldn't believe the power your full suspension bike cost you on a climb. So consider if you spend more time climbing or speeding over rock gardens and bombing downhills.
Most of the fast guys I ride with are on front suspension only, mostly due to the energy efficiency lost to rear suspension compression on hard pedal strokes.
IMHO, front suspension is good for bike control when taking a serious hit, but your legs are good enough for rear suspension and the benefits outweigh any comfort gains.

FrozenK

It will depend on a)the trail and b) the specific bikes compared. I went from a carbon hardtail (Kona King Kahuna) to a full suspension (Yeti ASRc) this summer. No noticeable difference on climbs, faster on most downhill segments (Strava!!!!!) Both bikes had similar drivetrain (2x10, but the Kona has a 39/26 crank and the Yeti a 38/24) and I used the same wheels on both bikes. The Yeti is about a pound or a pound and a half heavier than the Kona. Geometry wise, the Yeti is more aggressive than the Kona.

A full suspension bike will not only keep you in control, but also have better traction. This makes a huge difference on technical/loose surface climbs. And a decent modern full suspension bike won't lose much pedal efficiency. Probably balances out with the energy you lose on a hardtail due to bouncing over things and tire slipping.

In general, on smoother trails a hardtail will be faster. On more buff trails a full suspension will tend to be faster. Of course this assumes similar bikes. A 22lb full suspension bike will probably be more efficient than a 35lb hardtail even on fire roads.

If you have plateau on performance you need to identify if it is because you are at peak fitness or if equipment is holding you. Al lighter bike (or wheels, or rear suspension) may shave a couple seconds here and there. But unless you are making a huge change or addressing an specific issue (lack of confidence on descents for example) it is unlikely to make a huge difference.

SpeshulEd 

If I could do it all over again, I'd get a nicer hardtail. I usually end up locking out my rear suspension for everything but descents anyway.

That said, I suck at mountain biking so my opinion is crap.

RJM

There is a local trail to me that is a well maintained 16 mile out and back that has a bunch of climbs, descents and is a twisty, curvy, route the surface is much like those hard packed rails to trails stuff and there are no roots or stuff to stop momentum....this route is perfect for a nice light rigid hardtail with stiff wheels or even just a hardtail with a nice XC fork. It is quite a bit faster to ride it with a bike like that than with a my full suspension Trek Fuel. You just don't need suspension on a trail like this and I generally lock out my Trek when I ride it.

but, the other trails around me are rooty, bumpy and have obstacles which are better suited to a full suspension. An XC bike will do, but I feel a trail bike that has a little more travel really allows you to get the most out of the trail...especially the jumps. It is a little faster on that trail system.

Kindaslow

Your Yeti model, like my Epic, are famous for being the rocket ships of the XC bike world. So, there is less difference. The average medium travel full susp bike will not climb like these bikes. But, in the end, the trail is still a major factor for most bikes. And, like you said, it is then down to the rider's conditioning, skills, and testicular fortitude.

JRCurzon

I'm always working on my fitness because obviously there is always room for improvement, but recently I've found that even on sections where I'm hammering it and I'm not stretching my lungs and legs too much I'm just not that quick. Obviously working on skills and practising corners has allowed me to shave a few seconds but I think that the potential for improvement over my local trail (fastest 21:17) may not just be limited to fitness and skill.

Kindaslow

It is always a combination of things. Any way in which you could ride your favorite trails with a local top racer? If you did, you guys could figure out where the difference are,and you could focus on those. Also, it is possible you are more of an endurance kind of rider versus a sprinter, given you are talking about struggling to get quicker on a rather short trail. Just a thought, or two. Also, if you are near a peak and you have a bike that is not in the super fast bike group, it will make some difference (and it will be fun). Just do not hope for it to answer all the problems.

Gallo

There are allot of factors and probably the least limiting factor is the bike. Fitness Talent and skill make up for most speed. If you fitness is good you need to break some barriers. A fitness routine of hill repeats and sprints helps you break fitness barriers. Skill on the mountain bike is no small thing either. As you point out shaving some times around corners and know when to accelerate and when to brake when to weight your front tire when to let it flat out run are key components of speed. Some guys are just plain faster and better and that is talent.

I have a 2008 Stumpjumper Hardtail and a Pivot 429C full suspension. So one big difference is wheel size. Which is a whole nother conversation. On the flats the 29r has an advantage ramps up and rolls faster. On really twisty stuff the 26 is more nimble. Climbing the same routes I have not seen much difference. Descending the full suspension is much better.

Not all of these factors translate to all out speed. Having the full suspension did make me more confident and therefore faster on descents but that skill has translated over to when I ride the hardtail. I am way more comfortable on the full suspension. Less beat up after rides. When I get out on the Hardtail it puts a smile on my face familar as I rode a hardtail for years whippy and fun.

The bottom line is both bikes can be fast you just have to ride them fast.

I think the dropper post and tubeless set up are the two things that improved my speed more than my new bike did.

Bottom line is if you love to ride get a good fs that fits you. If you are worried only about speed your current bike is probably not holding you back as much as you think.

One sure way of getting faster is ride with faster folks and hang on to their wheel for dear life while you suffer.

btw I ride socal canyons lots of short climbing +- 300 vert and chunky sections mostly clay like hard pack

Good luck

SpeshulEd 

Can you give some detail on the advantages of a dropper post. I mean, obviously it gets out of your way when you're descending, but is it really that advantageous? I was considering one for awhile, but mostly just because I had money to waste and wanted to buy fancy things for my bike. Right now, I usually just leave my seatpost in the same location the entire ride and try to work around it.

hig4s

I was skeptical also, and didn't want to spend $300 for something I wasn't sure of.. So I bought a KS Eten dropper, $140. Only drops 100mm but I find that it is amazing. I started using it and still my timing for dropping and raising is not always good. but I get over obstacles and down hills so much easier than before. I wouldn't be without one now.

Gallo

yes its a game changer I use it not just on descending.

For me anyway it totally changed the way the bike works descending. getting the seat out of the way allows you to spread your body weight from butt way over rear tire and still weight your front. This allows for more control and speed at the same time. The ability to move your lower body wherever you want gives a different feel in a good way. IMO one of the best upgrades you can do.

I also use it when climbing loose and steep I lower a bit for traction

Long climbing slogs I change position slightly to reduce fatigue

twisty single-track to get a little lower center of gravity and faster cornering under control.

Low branch areas to duck as low as possible

SpeshulEd 

Hmm...next time I see them pop up used locally, I might have to go for it. Any brands that are better than others? I'm assuming any of the major branded ones should do the trick and work well.

JRCurzon

You raise some interesting points, a dropper post would definitely help but I'm a broke-ass student so its not really an option. I have a 29er so I have that in my favour. I will try that idea of sprinting mixed with climbs as a training method, where I live is very hilly and a normal 1hr session normally sees about 200m of climbing, but I'm not sure how much sprinting. Thanks for that tip.

Gallo

I have a Thompson Most of my friends ride Lev. I think the Lev probally has one of the best reputations but many other manufacturers are doing a good job. I would stay away from the Kronolog by crank bros which had many problems. The Gravity dropper has a big following but I like the idea of infinite positions. I would see whats available and check its reviews online

You can always go on MTBR and ask lots of folks have forgotten more than I know on that site.

Gallo

Your bike looks pretty good and has the right stuff on it.

With the quick release seat you can lower it on a dedicated down hill section and see if it gains any advantage for you. It would not be the whole course like you want as you will have to stop to raise once out of the section but it can give that feel. I think if you do this enough you will improve your descending skills which will translate to faster descents when your seat is in the fixed position. You can mix this routine into hill repeats.

you might want to invest in some flat specific shoe like the 510 brand there are many others. Having a positive connection with the shoe to pedal which flat specific shoes will do is a advantage. I used to ride clippless but have made the change to ride flats most of the time in the dirt

Fit is huge and you can gain power by having the bike fitted correctly small movement forward and back and up and down on the seat have allot of effect on comfort and overall power. go to this site
Bike Fit Calculator | Find Your Bike Size | Competitive Cyclist follow the instructions and fit your bike. Once you have this base you can fiddle with stuff and dial it in to what feels best for you

you can always do some things to dial in your current bike


I would mess with my tire air pressure ad find the sweet spot less can be more by running lower pressure your bike has more contact on the ground and this translate to smoother faster riding. Tubeless if you dont have it is a fairly cheap upgrade but you can always run the tubes at lower pressure as well

Same with your fork a few pounds of pressure one way or the other makes the fork perform suited to you as well as dialing in the rebound Lock out your fork on some climbs and get out of the saddle

Keep you bike clean and properly lubricated. conditions in the dirt are hard on a chain

The idea on sprints is flat out effort for 100-200 meters find a flat area rest just a bit between sprints and keep your heart rate up

On hill repeats mix up flat out efforts and easy efforts go in too big a gear and mash go in too small a gear and spin. Monitor efforts on a known quantity and find out gear and style gives you the best results

Do some sort of cool down at the end of each ride and stretch. Flexibility improves power

try to work out some routes with more climbing like double of what you are doing now.

Find a local club or group if you can. Ride with a group that is faster is always a good way to gain speed. Nothing like a bit of competition. If you see someone on the trial try to catch them and pass them if safe. If someone passes you try to get their wheel if they are faster just hang on as long as you can.

There is allot that can be done to get faster you will hit plateaus and maybe not able to break through them sometimes the game of trying is allot of fun however

Good luck

JRCurzon

Thanks Gallo the fit guide is especially useful. I have been tweaking pressures etc, and will definitely try climbing more (when time allows). I've actually bought a pair of five tens and I noticed the improvement almost immediately as feet slip less and I've had more confidence on downhill and in the technical sections. I'd ride in a group more often but dragging mates out midwinter in England is difficult lol.

FrozenK

I'd invest in a wheelset before a dropper post. Specially if you aren't running tubeless. The difference in rolling resistance is huge.

Wingsprint

There is a lot of very good advice in this thread regarding the bike and the "engine".

I don't see how the question regarding times for a full suspension carbon bike vs a hardtail can be answered. There are too many factors.

As far as your current bike- There might be some unlocked potential there.... you have stated it is a 29er aluminum hardtail without a dropper post. Tell us more about the bike. Brand & model? What fork? Are you running tubeless? What drive train? What terrain do you race in?

JRCurzon

I have a Pinnacle Ramin 4 (Evanscycles in house), running Rockshox recon gold soloair 120, tubeless rims by alex, continental mountain kings (2.4 at front, 2.2 in rear, tubeless), shimano deore 2x10 and the terrain is sorta muddy hills, trails mixture of custom made and just roots and rocks. theres quite a lot of variation in terrain, so im currently running stiff forks and soft tires (23 psi)

osco53

I tried a Dropper, was a real Nice Giant model, never a problem, A great training tool that took me where I needed to go to advance my skills.

I could not wait to get rid of it tho, I could really feel that 1.2 pounds way up high on the bike.
The Infinite position was a PIA, I never could get it exactly right,
The more I rode the thing the more I set my seat half way down, that Is the height where I can pinch the seat when needed for a quick snatch up.
It gave me what I needed,, sold It,

I ride the long fire roads into the park, stop at the beginning of the first single track and drop my seat half way down. There It stays until I start the long ride out.

If I were to do another It would be the Gravity Dropper with the three set positions, Up/Mid/Down. More aggressive riders will get more out of them I have no doubt.

I highly recommend trying one out, It really helped me learn how to move around on the bike.

SpeshulEd 

Thanks for the info! There's a Thompson on the local used board right now for what seems to be fairly cheap, I might give it a go.

Gallo

I think the terrain could be a huge factor in my likeing of it. We have allot of up and down during a ride and I ride with a group often which is faster than me and often I do not have the opportunity to make adjustments. Well I can call out and our group is very forgiving that way and would stop but it is a pride thing I guess I do not want to hold the group up. I really like the infinite position but am often going back to full up which is the most important position. just a little down on loose climbs . I find it usefull. Many I know ride with them. There are many far faster than me that do not use them.

Attached is a typical terain ride right out of my house

Canker

I have one ride on a Fox DOSS dropper so I don't have a lot of experience but I could really tell it was help full in a few select places. I'm sure if I road it more I'd find more and more places it would come in handy. It does feel really weird at first when you drop because I expect the seat to be there and brace my knee against it at times. The Fox ended up just being a hair to short for either of my frames so I'm going to have to send it back. The Fox is a 3 position and for me that seemed fine. Not sure I'd like the infinite since with the 3 you always know where it is going to be and don't have to hunt for that right spot somewhere in the middle. Amazon has the Fox DOSS for $165 half of it's normal price and it is suppose to be one of the more reliable ones. Just have to make sure it is long enough for your frame.

Alex rims aren't usually the lightest things around or any stock wheels for that matter. I'd probably go with wheels first. Something along the lines of Stan's Crest wheels are 1550 grams or so in 29er while most stock wheels are over 2000. I run a set of those I picked up used for $200 US on my rigid.