Yea, back in P'cola I would ride some trails on the local college campus and these were built and maintained by the local mtb club. You'd see runners out there from time to time. I don't mind sharing the trail, especially since most would just hop out of your way, maybe even give you a thumbs up. But, the ones who just stand there and act like they are bothered by you would get me fuming.
Maybe talk to the park staff, and see if they could put up signs designated it as a bike course, and runners to give way to bikes.

[QUOTE=3speed;13236341]^ That's just backwards and makes no sense. Try looking at it from some sort of logical standpoint. It just makes much more sense and is safer for everyone for a jogger to step out of the way than a cyclist to try to ride through the woods to try to avoid the jogger. Then there's always just the common decency of not being a dick to MTBers on a MTB trail. That's like me joining up in a game of football with a bunch of 6th graders and slaughtering and tackling the crap out of them. Sure, those are the rules of the game, but a little decency tells me that it's not the right thing to do, just like the runners shouldn't just say "Eh, you have to yield to joggers. I don't really care if you made the trails." Common decency. Difficult for some to grasp, but it's a beautiful thing if we could get everyone to manage it someday.

What you're saying is the equivalent to all of the college students around here who get out of class and stop traffic for 15min at a time just because they have the right of way and can. Sure, you Can be a dick to those 5 cars, but when you know they've been sitting for literally 15min with rude self centered students walking into the street, why not stop a second and let them go by?[/QUOTE
I agree. :thumb:
I must add that folks at the park the trails are super friendly around here.

^ The people around here are actually pretty friendly too, but that's mostly just due to the "Madison bubble." There's a well known saying in the southern WI area that Madison is "50mi surrounded by reality." In other words, it's a bunch of liberal people who are nice to each other. Crazy, right... I think it's sad that people being polite to each other around here results in a common saying of them not being in reality. Anyway, having ridden on trails outside of the Madison area in the midwest, I can Totally understand where the OP is coming from. Those who don't live around the northern IL/southern WI area don't understand. They're imagining this nice area with the occasional jogger that they have to go around when they come up on them. Around here, particularly in the more populated areas, there's a serious lack of trails, and sometimes there are a LOT of joggers on them, so encountering them isn't a once in a while thing that's no big deal. It's like every 5 seconds around a turn you're hitting your brakes hard and having to find a way around them, and they'll just have a F you attitude and stay right in the middle of the trail and give you no room to pass because they have the right of way so F you. You have to either loudly and kinda rudely say "EXCUSE me!" and then they give you a "F Off" look and Kinda move over, or take to being kind of a jerk yourself and ride half in the woods and have invading on their space to get around them.

As for the person earlier who said Don't ride in the woods to get around someone(Edit: Zephyr11), what are you to do when a rude jogger won't give you any room on wooded/brushy singletrack and they're going 3-4mph depending on the terrain? Ride 3-4mph for the next mile or two until you get a spot to go around them? Luckily I haven't actually encountered this problem myself. Around here we all share the trail and give each other room and say excuse me and all that good stuff, but I can see others refusing to move around the Chicago area for sure. There are a Lot of Self Centered A-holes in that area.

http://www.cyclesportandfitness.com/...-duet-bell.jpg
Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding.
They usually get the hint, I give a courtesy ding at a good distance, then another if that don't work. It gets increasingly more frequent the closer I get.

Get lots of 'thank yous' from hikers, cuz they prefer a bell to a yell.
Conflict causes trail closings - & you can bet that the MTBs will be the 1st to go.

My local BMX track is county run & maintained in a public park, so I assume I'd have to yield to runners there as well. And given the OP's story, it doesn't seem too far out to consider people might start running the BMX track. Such is life I suppose..

And OP, I'm on your side with this one. If I were you I would talk to whomever is in charge of the the MTB club & see if they're feeling the same or would like to help you out. See if you could get him to try to renegotiate the terms of the MTB club maintaining the trail, & make a contingency that the MTB club will only maintain the trails if they get the right-of-way when riding them.

I build and maintain trails on public land, open to everybody. It only takes a few dorks who refuse to learn the rules to ruin that.

Good luck getting permission to build your private playground on public land. Maybe there are a few trail systems on public land that are "bikes only", but they are certainly vanishingly rare. And you had better make it bikes only, not bikes have "right of way". How exactly is that supposed to work? You want pedestrians to dive out of the way when you barrel around a blind corner?

A simple "On your left" should suffice (or you can try "Track!" since trackies tend to know what that means). Most of them aren't so dumb that they'll stay in the middle of the trail and not let you pass, and no runner wants a bike up their ass for a couple miles anyway. The only time I can possibly see it being an issue is if someone is dumb enough to wear headphones on a trail. Anyway, if they're moving *that* slow, just dismount, sprint past them like you're riding cyclocross, and remount. Trail rules are very straightfoward here. You yield to pedestrians, and you don't make your own trail through the woods.

FWIW, I've found that sometimes it's easier to ride over a rock garden than run over them. Runners need to pick a line too. They can't always just jump out of the way as soon as you want to get past. And also, if they're doing a tempo workout and pass you, it's really annoying for you to do the "crap, I'm getting passed by someone on foot!" and start trying to race them, only to get passed by them again and end up doing a catch and sprint away game.

No runner is going to start running laps on a BMX track. It's just not going to happen. Will some trail runners deal with an occasional banked turn or feature on a trail? Yeah, probably. Will they start doing laps on something that has constant rollers and where they have to run down a start hill every 1000m or so? No, absolutely not.

Is this really that much of a problem for you guys, that you encounter these scenarios on a regular basis? I'm not talking about maybe once a month or so, because hopefully once in a while you can deal with someone annoying, but you honestly get runners who block you out while going in the same direction multiple times a week? I don't think I've *ever* had a problem on a trail, as a runner or as a biker. And I don't even think I've had that many problems running on MUPs with spandex-clad roadies who thought that was a good place to get in their workout for the day.

^They could dive if they chose, I suppose, but I would recommend simply stepping to avoid diving onto thorns or a pile of poison ivy:rolleyes:

If a bike really is "barreling" down a corner, the sound of his bike can be heard from plenty a distance to get out of the way in time. People on foot can more easily move out of the way of bikes than the other way around, as people on foot have this fascinating ability called "lateral movement". Here ya go genius:thumb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_movement

Oh come on, Zephyr! I'd expect you of all people to appreciate a little playful sarcasm over a topic that's getting people way too heated.

To be fair though, the last time I went to the local BMX track, there were some obnoxious younger teenagers pretending to parkour on the track. They may not have been runners running laps, but they were runners running jumps, which is essentially the same in this case. (seeing how you can't really run laps on a BMX track...)

And FWIW, I've absolutely never have a problem with runners on the trails. The trails around here have some sections that are obviously left rooty & rocky for bikers, but essentially they work just as well for running/walking as they do biking & there were walking trails there before they built biking trails, so I have no issue yielding to them. I just think it's absurd & inconsiderate for either party (biker or runner) to view the trail as "theirs" & refuse to give any for the other person. That's not the spirit of the trails, we're all out there enjoying nature & there's no reason for hostility to or from anyone. Everyone should be considered a guest on the trail, & should be respectful of others' space accordingly. Meaning if a biker is approaching a section that he either has to maintain momentum into or get off & walk through, maybe the runner could step aside as to not ruin that section for the biker? They don't have to, but would it really kill them to be courteous, even when the law doesn't demand it? And same to the biker if you're descending a hill of really narrow single track & you see a runner approaching--that hill might be the struggle they've been working on all month to get up without stopping, so would it kill you to stop & scoot off the trail for them for ten seconds, even though you could keep riding & give them barely enough space to get by as to abide by the law?

This is the key right here, just be respectful. And I think that in most places, that's how it is. I've lived in places as active as Boulder, CO, and places as non-active as podunk Pennsyltucky, and both runners and bikers tend to be considerate in both. I think that many runners will step out of the way if there's a spot that a biker needs to maintain momentum, though this is certainly NOT their responsibility. However, you do need to keep in mind that a lot of runners do not mountain bike, and won't even realize that this can possibly be an issue. That's not them trying to make your life difficult; that's them honestly not realizing it's an issue for you. So if they don't get out of the way, understand that it's your responsibility to yield, technical spot or not. If they move, thank them, because they're doing you a favor. If they don't move, it's not their responsibility, and they're really not trying to make your life hard, so be respectful of trail rules and get out of their way.

Exactly. Thank you.

This is something that I had never even considered until you mentioned it earlier in the thread. I've been biking as a sport (off & on) since I was ten years old & never got into running, so the thought never crossed my mind that runners simply don't know about the technicalities of mountain biking. I've been lucky enough never to have any issue with runners, but I think having that foresight will help me brush off the frustration if such a thing were ever to happen.

Ever heard the expression "don't bite the hand that feeds"?:rolleyes:

FWIW, I've also been on running forums where runners complained about bikers riding the trails that the runners built while they were wet and messing up the trails, buzzing them as they rode by, and running the runners off the side of the trail. I told them I never encountered that either, and that everyone I've ever ridden with has been respectful to runners (especially since some of them run too). I think half these stories are exaggerated, on both sides.

Each year for the past 5 years, two weeks each year I have traveled to and ridden the trails in the TSALI as well as several Pisgah trails and have encountered runners, and my experience has been mostly the same as most here, with both sides offering consideration to the other, so I don't think it's just me in this case.

It gotta tell ya the poster above who mentioned the selfish attitudes of the midwest is not far off. It's not just the trail. I too have been spending large blocks of time in the SE the last several years, and people are just friendlier and more considerate.

This past thursday evening, there were over 20 runners in this small park. I have been noticing the groups getting larger. The other thing that makes it annoying is that they run both directions. This set of trails has sponsored races every so often and the trails are marked with directional arrows. The rest of use normally run the direction that has been laid out as the (suggested) route. The runners don't seem to pay attention.

Look, I am a poser at best when it comes to mtn biking and the rules of yielding. Just seems to me that common courtesy should dictate. Quote from the movie "Road House", just before the bouncers wailed on the unruly patorns "Just Be Nice!"

Right. And what happens the first time a kid gets hit because he didn't exercise his capacity for lateral movement quickly enough to avoid a collision? What happens if somebody is momentarily distracted and doesn't hear your bike coming around the blind corner? What happens if somebody is hearing impaired? What happens if they are already injured? What happens if it's another cyclist going more slowly than you? What happens if it's another cyclist traveling the opposite direction? What happens if it's a deer? Or a downed tree?

You are the one moving at high speed and creating a potentially hazardous situation. It is your responsibility prevent an accident, and it is your responsibility to maintain the level of control and alertness to do so.

The rules are what they are for very good reason.

Nice. In another context it's balloons over airships over helos over aircraft. If you're flying a Cessna, don't mess with those hot air balloons or helicopters ....

Of course the pedestrian has the discretion to yield, even if he/she has the right-of-way. Sometimes it's obvious that it's much easier for a runner or walker to take a couple steps to the side and wait a few seconds for a rider to go by than to insist on his or her right to the track.

But the rule should be unambiguous.

Bingo and bingo - you can't ask for more clarity than that. +1K

I would imagine that bikes would yield to balloons and airships too, if it ever came up...

http://www.eccentricanomaly.org/Corvco/blimpup.jpg

BLIMP UP!!

I was going to leave well enough alone and not post in this thread anymore, but now you're just saying things to try to prove a point. Obviously we're talking about people with Some sort of common sense and acting with some common decency. The original post seems pretty clear to me that we're discussing encountering rude, inconsiderate joggers on the trail, not that we think there should be a bunch of crazed MTBers running people down. :rolleyes:

As for the person who posted about the bell, I do really like that idea. Do you find it rings on it's own on choppy terrain and the like? I wouldn't want to just be riding along like I have sleigh bells on my bike, but if it's not like that then I'm seriously going to get one for my MTB(have one on my road bike/commuter).

At last, someone that gets it:thumb:

Joining one of these groups will help.


We had a big ruckus a few yrs ago in Golden, when OSAC almost banned cyclists from Apex trail. Apex was being shuttled by d-bags who felt they didn't need to yield while bombing: to hikers, equestrians, and ascending riders. (we had an encounter with one just a few weeks ago) After several meetings, we 'lucked out' with a new plan where bikes can use certain trails on certain days & in a certain direction only.

One excuse that always makes me laugh is when I hear that since a rider can't easily come to a stop on a downhill in order to yield, it should be up to the ascending rider to yield. If someone isn't able to do a maneuver as simple as coming to a stop while descending maybe it's time they slap on some 23c's & shave their legs.


Only when I smash my knee against it. (as I did today in a chunky rock garden)

Thanks for the advice. I'm gonna get one then. Not that I have any problems around here, but it just seems like a good idea from a standpoint of safety and communication to others. Heck, I never thought of it before(I feel like an idiot for not), but MTBs in particular could use bells probably more than most other bikes.

I don't see why there's even a debate over this. Not a perfect analogy perhaps, but take cars and pedestrians for example. Are people who jaywalk in traffic and cross against the signal inconsiderate and annoying (as well as possibly breaking the law)? You bet. Is there any debate about who yields to whom in that situation? Nope.

Apparently, after reading this thread, the people where I run and ride have a bunch of common sense and I don't really have issues with runners/bikers. Now - dogs, is a different story. However, it was reassuring to start a gravity run on a trail that had the sign below - knowing that the only users that were allowed on the trail have a pretty good concept on how the trail is supposed to be used and respected. Note: the pic was taken here - it is public, and every trailhead has a sign like this.