Bikes vs Runners on the Single Track
 

A few years back, a local county park made an agreement with the local mountain biking group to allow the development of a very nice 5 mile single track, with the understanding that the bike group be the stewards of the park related to cleanliness, safety and other positive things..

So, knowing that, this being a county park and available to all, I am not here to debate who should get to use these trails, though their intended use was obvious. Who builds a walking track with jumps and banked switch backs?

What I am having a problem with is that in the past year I have seen a huge increase of runners who have adopted these trails for their use, and granted, some of them are faster than me, but for the most part you have that walkie run kinda thing going on. The bigger issue is they have adopted an attitude that you must go around them, even if it is evident that you are screaming on a downhill, they will not budge to allow you passage on down the trail even when they see you coming. There is a particular section that is a series of 6 well designed switchbacks with large risers in between each. When you commit to this section, there is no stopping, less you want to fall. These joggers are puttering through these areas and get angry if you attempt to slip by :notamused:.

Am I missing something here? Am I wrong to be flustered (my forum version of pi$$ed) by this?

Do you have signs establishing which users must yield? If not, there should be some.
Our local park makes cyclists yield. It would seem far easier for a runner to step off the trail than a cyclist, but that's not my decision...

When I used to trail run, I would always yield to bikes, too much potential for crash and injuries the other way. Though I generally stayed off the trail where bikes were permitted, too many blind corners.

no way to make it a bikes only trail?

Sounds to me like you need to make it well known that the MTB group is responsible for the trails, and the cleanliness/maintenance of the entire park. A lot of them are just self centered d-bags who probably don't even realize that those trails don't just occur naturally(who'd of thought?) and that your group is out there taking care of them. They might have to think to figure something like that out, and thinking is not a strong suit of the standard self centered d-bag.

I personally say post some signs at the beginning of each trail that say something like "You realize these are obviously MTB trails, right jackass? I thought so. Feel free to use them, but how about moving out of the way for MTBs, considering their club are the ones who put in these trails and maintain the entire park for you."

In light of the fact that you can't do that, some simple standard park signs will probably help your situation. Ours has the standard signs with a bike, a hiker, etc, at each trail head. I rarely see hikers on the trail, and they're always courteous and step off of the trail when they see me coming.

I'm not involved in the politics of this place so I really don't know what the "rules" are, but it is so obvious what the intent of the trails is.

I guess the thing that bugs me is that I feel like its been hijacked. Should just be common courtesy damn it.

You are so my kinda people :-)

Too bad you can't sneak those signs on in the middle of the night and then sneak them off again whenever a park official comes around.

i think putting up some signs stating that 1. this trail is built and maintained by MTBrs 2. you can run/walk on it if you want but you better get out of my way if im on a bike, would be your best bet.

Hikers / joggers yield to mtber's around here and that's due to comon sense and that they know it's primarily a mtb trail. Not sure what is up there ass where you live and that trail :wtf:

It's the general rude, self-focused attitude of the midwest. I grew up in the south, and even though it was a city, it was way more polite and considerate than even small towns around here. I've spent some time (few weeks at a time) in a couple other parts of the country and the midwest is definitely the worst as far as common decency in general is concerned. It seems to be worst from ~Chicago on up to a little past Milwaukee, and over to the far borders of each state. By no means is everyone here like that, but it seems to be a Lot more concentrated and accepted here than anywhere else I've been(which excludes the north eastern part of the country like NY, etc). I've heard a lot of other places are getting more like this too, though. :( I suppose it'll be time to skip town and head to Ireland/Scotland soon. Very friendly people there from what I experienced in the short time I visited.

You are missing something. The rules of singletrack are very simple: cyclists yield to walkers and equestrians. Period. And downhill riders yield to uphill riders. Downhill riders must always ride in control so that this is possible.

Who built the trails is irrelevant. Who maintains the trails is irrelevant. If they are open to other users, then you yield.

^ That's just backwards and makes no sense. Try looking at it from some sort of logical standpoint. It just makes much more sense and is safer for everyone for a jogger to step out of the way than a cyclist to try to ride through the woods to try to avoid the jogger. Then there's always just the common decency of not being a dick to MTBers on a MTB trail. That's like me joining up in a game of football with a bunch of 6th graders and slaughtering and tackling the crap out of them. Sure, those are the rules of the game, but a little decency tells me that it's not the right thing to do, just like the runners shouldn't just say "Eh, you have to yield to joggers. I don't really care if you made the trails." Common decency. Difficult for some to grasp, but it's a beautiful thing if we could get everyone to manage it someday.

What you're saying is the equivalent to all of the college students around here who get out of class and stop traffic for 15min at a time just because they have the right of way and can. Sure, you Can be a dick to those 5 cars, but when you know they've been sitting for literally 15min with rude self centered students walking into the street, why not stop a second and let them go by?

Folks like you, who are not only ignorant of trail etiquette, but refuse to be educated, are the ones who get trail access to mountain bikes shut down all over the country. Please go to http://www.imba.com and become educated.

I have never had a problem with this. Not as a runner, not as a biker. I sometimes get upset with the equestrians, but most runners and bikers are polite enough to not crap in the middle of a trail, so my main gripe with horses doesn't really apply to them. As corvuscorvax said, bikers are supposed to yield to pedestrians, and both are supposed to yield to equestrians. As a biker, I yield...it doesn't really interrupt my flow. As a runner, 99% of the time, bikers are respectful enough to yield to me, though if they're in the middle of a rock garden or something, I'll get out of their way (though before I started biking, I wouldn't have even thought to do that, not because I was feeling superior to them, but because I honestly wouldn't have realized it would be a problem). If I'm on my bike and really don't feel like dealing with runners, I go to the BMX track. If I'm running a tempo run, I go somewhere with no bikers. Also, you DON'T RIDE OFF THE TRAIL AND INTO THE WOODS TO AVOID PEDESTRIANS AND EQUESTRIANS! Get to the side of a trail and either put a foot down or wait for 5 seconds. It's not that hard.

Have you asked the runners to help maintain the trails? And I don't just mean grab them on a trail and make some smartass remark to them because that's just going to strain runner-biker relations and breed hostility. I mean honestly reach out to them about trail maintenance days. I've known a lot of trail runners who do every bit as much trail work as mountain bikers. I've actually done way more work on trails with fellow runners than fellow mountain bikers. If they didn't build the trails, they don't know when to work on them (and trust me, you don't want them working on them without you either, since the ones who don't mountain bike don't realize that jumps and other features are there for a reason, and honestly think that someone just didn't clear out that part of the trail).

That said, any "runner" who's running on a trail with actual jumps (as opposed to features that you can get air off of or there isn't an alternate way down) is a stupid jolly jogger who clearly isn't getting a very good workout, since it's kind of impossible to run on dirt jumps. Just saying.

What's with your ****ty attitude? He's making good points. Just accepting something for the way it is means things will never change. Why not try to get a specific trail marked so that MTBs have the right of way, especially since that particular trail was designed for and by MTBers?

Word. Nothing about the situation is ambigous. Case closed.

http://www.nimba-bike.org/Images/TrailYield.gif

There are bike only trails for anyone who does not understand this ^^. That being said, most hikers will jump off the trail when there is a bike approaching- represent the sport well and thank them.

Horses... GTFO of their way. It's a dick move to scare a horse on a narrow trail.

So many do this; and each time I encounter it, I feel bad that they feel the need to. Thank yous are always in style in those situations.

Also a good courtesy when you're on a group ride to let other users know how many more in your group are behind you still to come.

More Word. Thanks, D.

The rules of the trail (the triangle) ALWAYS apply by default. Any change from that necessitates signage as such ie. 'bikes only'.

That is the way it is. Not open for debate IMO.

I'm an imba member and have read such things, thanks. I also yield to joggers. I'm a very friendly and polite person in general. Believe me, I'm Definitely not the type of person getting trails shut down. I chat with most everyone I meet on the trail if they're not currently moving, as I said, I do yield to joggers, and I follow the guidelines of not riding trails inappropriately and participate in work days. However, I don't generally encounter joggers that are complete jerks about it, as the OP seems to be dealing with. If someone is being a prick, deal with it accordingly.

Appreciate all the responses. I am enlightened, though still frustrated.

And, we have not even brought up the subject of what consistent veering off of a trial does to the life of the run.

More a set of guidelines to follow (an example)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3228/...27f6b328e6.jpg
Pretty common practice almost everywhere, unless it's private, or posted differently.

-Bikes yield to anything & everything, we're the low man out there.
-Downhill yields to uphill, except at DH only, & resorts.
-Keep singletrack single - do NOT ride off trail, making braids, this trashes the trail.
-If you can't ride, don't go around it, walk over.
-Talk to people, say 'hi' (chat up any/all the fair damsels you encounter on the trail.) Thank them for yielding, whether they do or not.
-Ride in control - I pin it when there's open trail ahead, but if you cant' see enough in advance (blind corners) slow it little just in case (I ring my bell coming up to hidden areas as well)

You have a bell? That is so cool:D

safety dictates bringing the faster moving obstacle to the yield. Level the playing field insuring no one gets hurt