Norcal guy rants against expensive bikes on Youtube
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,791
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1020 Post(s)
Liked 463 Times
in
293 Posts
As someone remarked in another thread, "the most expensive bike is the one that you don't ride."
I've put over 6,000 miles on my Colnago C59 since I bought it on June 2012. I guess that makes the C59 a relatively inexpensive bike.
I've put over 6,000 miles on my Colnago C59 since I bought it on June 2012. I guess that makes the C59 a relatively inexpensive bike.
#27
The Left Coast, USA
Thread Starter
Hey Astro..., I'll help with that comprehension thing..I am a Mensa guy afterall.
He makes two primary points: 1) The incremental benefit differences are small, the incremental price differences are huge, and 2) Chasing these small incremental improvements distorts the purpose of non-race bike riding (fun and fitness) and ends up being an exclusionary factor for new entrants, i.e. high cost to entry impedes market growth.
Carbon fiber frames are going for under $500, check eBay. The $11K Trek he's talking about will be probably be selling used for $3-4K on CL in a year or so, rejoice. I'm surprised he missed the "terrible resale value" diss entirely.
The analogy to smartphones works if you are thinking about these semi-monthly releases of iPhones. And, since I've kept buying up those old dual core XP running machines I have no idea what the CPU market is pushing these days... Have they come out with dual quad cores yet? I think I'll wait for the eighteen wheeler CPUs.
He makes two primary points: 1) The incremental benefit differences are small, the incremental price differences are huge, and 2) Chasing these small incremental improvements distorts the purpose of non-race bike riding (fun and fitness) and ends up being an exclusionary factor for new entrants, i.e. high cost to entry impedes market growth.
Carbon fiber frames are going for under $500, check eBay. The $11K Trek he's talking about will be probably be selling used for $3-4K on CL in a year or so, rejoice. I'm surprised he missed the "terrible resale value" diss entirely.
The analogy to smartphones works if you are thinking about these semi-monthly releases of iPhones. And, since I've kept buying up those old dual core XP running machines I have no idea what the CPU market is pushing these days... Have they come out with dual quad cores yet? I think I'll wait for the eighteen wheeler CPUs.
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 2,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Hey Astro..., I'll help with that comprehension thing..I am a Mensa guy afterall.
He makes two primary points: 1) The incremental benefit differences are small, the incremental price differences are huge, and 2) Chasing these small incremental improvements distorts the purpose of non-race bike riding (fun and fitness) and ends up being an exclusionary factor for new entrants, i.e. high cost to entry impedes market growth.
Carbon fiber frames are going for under $500, check eBay. The $11K Trek he's talking about will be probably be selling used for $3-4K on CL in a year or so, rejoice. I'm surprised he missed the "terrible resale value" diss entirely.
He makes two primary points: 1) The incremental benefit differences are small, the incremental price differences are huge, and 2) Chasing these small incremental improvements distorts the purpose of non-race bike riding (fun and fitness) and ends up being an exclusionary factor for new entrants, i.e. high cost to entry impedes market growth.
Carbon fiber frames are going for under $500, check eBay. The $11K Trek he's talking about will be probably be selling used for $3-4K on CL in a year or so, rejoice. I'm surprised he missed the "terrible resale value" diss entirely.
$11K Treks are purely symbolic (I believe the corresponding term in auto manufacturing is "halo car".) An analogy would be Chevrolet's Corvette ZR1. It is a monster car with 600+ hp supercharged engine and $110,000 sticker price. GM makes fewer than 1000 of those every year - about 0.05% of the total number of Chevrolet branded vehicles. I doubt that the share of $11K bikes in total Trek sales is substantially higher (once you exclude pro racing teams). Besides, no one really buys $11K Treks for the sticker.
#29
The Left Coast, USA
Thread Starter
I'll agree, and the last time I walked through Mike's Bikes the sweet spot seemed to be about $1300, some cheaper but nothing over $3900. Still his point about $600 mail order bikes seems valid to me, and that gets you alot of bike for a new rider. I'm hardly a cheap skate, but even as a CF bike owner I get sticker shock walking through my LBS; $500 gets you a used bike parked in the stand out by the tree...down by the river.
#30
Senior Member
I have one major problem with the whole "BikesDirect is better" attitude, it pre-supposes that you know how to fit a bike. My co-worker has bought two bikes from BD, and in both cases got really good deals. At the same time these forums are full of people who were penny-wise, pound foolish getting bikes from BD.
If you purchase a bike from BD, then add a custom fit and new stem then suddenly the price isn't so cheap. Its great if you have a bike that you like, but for someone just starting out, most people would be far better served by a good LBS.
When I bought my new bike, I explicitly avoid BD, simply because I wanted a better fitting bike. The best way to accomplish that was going to shops and riding a wide range of models.
If you purchase a bike from BD, then add a custom fit and new stem then suddenly the price isn't so cheap. Its great if you have a bike that you like, but for someone just starting out, most people would be far better served by a good LBS.
When I bought my new bike, I explicitly avoid BD, simply because I wanted a better fitting bike. The best way to accomplish that was going to shops and riding a wide range of models.
#31
It's MY mountain
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mt.Diablo
Posts: 10,002
Bikes: Klein, Merckx, Trek
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4338 Post(s)
Liked 2,980 Times
in
1,617 Posts
This guy pretends that he's concerned about entry level cyclists being turned off by how much it costs to get involved in the sport, but no one goes to a bike store and sees an $11,000 bike and abandons the idea of riding; in fact most stores won't even have the $11,000 bike on view.
Trek sells a road bike for only about $100 more than the Motobecane so he could've made his comparison between the $750 Trek and the $11,500 Trek and made the same points and it wouldn't have sounded so much like an anti-LBS / pro-BD commercial.
Trek sells a road bike for only about $100 more than the Motobecane so he could've made his comparison between the $750 Trek and the $11,500 Trek and made the same points and it wouldn't have sounded so much like an anti-LBS / pro-BD commercial.
#32
Senior Member
Six thousand miles on an $750 aluminum 16 speed in the last two years. (LBS vs Internet-The service and education is worth the extra coin) Got it when I was Clyder than I am now. Now I sometimes pass $5k Madone's going up Torrey Pines grade. Planning on getting a $2k bike soon, cause its cool and it's my birthday
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 83 Times
in
44 Posts
I have one major problem with the whole "BikesDirect is better" attitude, it pre-supposes that you know how to fit a bike. My co-worker has bought two bikes from BD, and in both cases got really good deals. At the same time these forums are full of people who were penny-wise, pound foolish getting bikes from BD.
If you purchase a bike from BD, then add a custom fit and new stem then suddenly the price isn't so cheap. Its great if you have a bike that you like, but for someone just starting out, most people would be far better served by a good LBS.
When I bought my new bike, I explicitly avoid BD, simply because I wanted a better fitting bike. The best way to accomplish that was going to shops and riding a wide range of models.
If you purchase a bike from BD, then add a custom fit and new stem then suddenly the price isn't so cheap. Its great if you have a bike that you like, but for someone just starting out, most people would be far better served by a good LBS.
When I bought my new bike, I explicitly avoid BD, simply because I wanted a better fitting bike. The best way to accomplish that was going to shops and riding a wide range of models.
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 775
Bikes: 2019 KonaLibre- 2003 Litespeed Vortex -2016 Intense Spider Factory Build -2008 Wilier Mortorolio- Specialized Stumpjumper Hardtail converted to bafang 750 mid drive -1986 Paramount 2014 - --- Pivot Mach 429c
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 43 Post(s)
Liked 15 Times
in
11 Posts
I think what is also missed is an educated buyer can get good value on a used bike
My Wilier Mortorolio with full carbon and ultegra cost me 1500 buck and the guy threw in shoes (louis ergos that fit) keo pedals and a wireless speedometer. Bike had a couple hundred mile on it and he did not like road riding because of cars.
It might look like I spent more but who cares its my bike and my money.
My Wilier Mortorolio with full carbon and ultegra cost me 1500 buck and the guy threw in shoes (louis ergos that fit) keo pedals and a wireless speedometer. Bike had a couple hundred mile on it and he did not like road riding because of cars.
It might look like I spent more but who cares its my bike and my money.
#35
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,962
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10425 Post(s)
Liked 11,899 Times
in
6,094 Posts
Online bike purchasing - new or used - makes great sense if you already know what size you need, and you have already been fitted, so what you're looking for is another bike which you can set up the same as one that already works. That's how I bought 2 of mine, a new Bianchi 928 back in '06, and a ~'92 Battaglin steel frame thatI built up. In each case, I already knew the size of bike I was looking for because I had previously bought one locally and, once I had built up to riding longer distances, gotten a custom fitting.
If you're buying your first road bike? Not so much. No, you don't get the 1 hour custom fitting, but you can keep coming back until it's right, and often the LBS will swap bars, stems, and saddles till it IS right. You MIGHT be able to properly estimate the proper size, if you have a tape measure and a patient friend.
Sure, you can get a poor-fitting bike at an LBS, especially if you're a novice shopping for bargains and go to a shop trying to unload product. It happened to me, with my first road bike. I went to a MUCH better shop for the second one!
If you're buying your first road bike? Not so much. No, you don't get the 1 hour custom fitting, but you can keep coming back until it's right, and often the LBS will swap bars, stems, and saddles till it IS right. You MIGHT be able to properly estimate the proper size, if you have a tape measure and a patient friend.
Sure, you can get a poor-fitting bike at an LBS, especially if you're a novice shopping for bargains and go to a shop trying to unload product. It happened to me, with my first road bike. I went to a MUCH better shop for the second one!
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#36
Bourbon junkie
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NorCal
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
$100 is $100 and I bet the MB has better parts.
Last edited by ricebowl; 09-17-13 at 12:42 PM.
#37
It's MY mountain
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mt.Diablo
Posts: 10,002
Bikes: Klein, Merckx, Trek
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4338 Post(s)
Liked 2,980 Times
in
1,617 Posts
$100 probably wouldn't justify a half-hour video screed though, right?
My point was that the video guy is comparing a cheap bike to an expensive bike, but it looks like he's comparing BD vs Trek and the models he chose were totally biased. He might just as well have compared the cheap Trek below to the Motobecane with Di2 ($2500) and come up with the same results but a different bias.
He also could've compared the cheap Trek to the expensive Trek and talked about what you get for the extra money (his opinion = not worth it). Or he could've done the same thing with two Motobecanes. Instead he picked his own cheap bike - probably the cheapest bike anybody would want to ride on a regular basis - to the most expensive bike he could find on the internet so he could mock anyone who spends more than he did and thereby justify his own philosophy of thriftiness.
And the motorcycle comparison thing comes up a lot too - how can a bicycle be worth more than a motorcycle? It's a red herring. Why did he buy a Ninja though, instead of a generic motorcycle from MotoDirect.com?
My point was that the video guy is comparing a cheap bike to an expensive bike, but it looks like he's comparing BD vs Trek and the models he chose were totally biased. He might just as well have compared the cheap Trek below to the Motobecane with Di2 ($2500) and come up with the same results but a different bias.
He also could've compared the cheap Trek to the expensive Trek and talked about what you get for the extra money (his opinion = not worth it). Or he could've done the same thing with two Motobecanes. Instead he picked his own cheap bike - probably the cheapest bike anybody would want to ride on a regular basis - to the most expensive bike he could find on the internet so he could mock anyone who spends more than he did and thereby justify his own philosophy of thriftiness.
And the motorcycle comparison thing comes up a lot too - how can a bicycle be worth more than a motorcycle? It's a red herring. Why did he buy a Ninja though, instead of a generic motorcycle from MotoDirect.com?
Last edited by DiabloScott; 09-17-13 at 01:11 PM.
#38
always rides with luggage
I got my first road bike at an REI... turns out it was a size too small.
Fast-forward 5 years and I had dumped it, gone back to MTBing and was ready for another road machine. I had borrowed my friend's Madone and taken it for a metric, so I knew about what size I was by then. I then went and ordered online. I'm cheap (I had kids on the way) and I like working on bikes. So I have had the Fantom CX ever since.
Fast-forward 5 years and I had dumped it, gone back to MTBing and was ready for another road machine. I had borrowed my friend's Madone and taken it for a metric, so I knew about what size I was by then. I then went and ordered online. I'm cheap (I had kids on the way) and I like working on bikes. So I have had the Fantom CX ever since.
__________________
--Ben
2006 Trek SU100, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX, 2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, and a Bakfiets
Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015)
Non-Bike hardware: MX Linux / BunsenLabs Linux / Raspbian / Mac OS 10.6 / Android 7
--Ben
2006 Trek SU100, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX, 2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, and a Bakfiets
Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015)
Non-Bike hardware: MX Linux / BunsenLabs Linux / Raspbian / Mac OS 10.6 / Android 7
#39
Erect member since 1953
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Antioch, CA (SF Bay Area)
Posts: 7,000
Bikes: Trek 520 Grando, Roubaix Expert, Motobecane Ti Century Elite turned commuter, Some old French thing gone fixie
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 38 Times
in
21 Posts
I have a BikesDirect Motobecane Fantom Cross Outlaw. I like it a lot and feel like it was a good deal. I've set it up as my commuter and commute on it every day. No serious complaints.
That said, I also have an full Ultegra Specialized Roubaix that I am in love with. It's just more fun to ride. It's like having a station wagon and a sports car. You may need the wagon, but you love the sports car. I'm not fast, but the Roubaix makes me as fast as I ever could be. And it feels great. It makes it more fun to work hard because the bike responds and goes faster in a way I can feel. I am so darn happy every time I get on it it is likely worth a ton more than I actually paid. I sure get more enjoyment out of it than any car I ever had. Even my Miata.
So, yeah, I don't need a Roubaix, bike clothes, gloves, Sidi shoes, or a Garmin. But considering how much I enjoy having them, unlike some crap I found I was wasting money on (cable TV anyone?) it would be silly not to.
Motobecane Fantom Outlaw commuter bike, not bad at all by ccorlew, on Flickr
Roubaix, complete with white wall tires, because it pleases me. by ccorlew, on Flickr
That said, I also have an full Ultegra Specialized Roubaix that I am in love with. It's just more fun to ride. It's like having a station wagon and a sports car. You may need the wagon, but you love the sports car. I'm not fast, but the Roubaix makes me as fast as I ever could be. And it feels great. It makes it more fun to work hard because the bike responds and goes faster in a way I can feel. I am so darn happy every time I get on it it is likely worth a ton more than I actually paid. I sure get more enjoyment out of it than any car I ever had. Even my Miata.
So, yeah, I don't need a Roubaix, bike clothes, gloves, Sidi shoes, or a Garmin. But considering how much I enjoy having them, unlike some crap I found I was wasting money on (cable TV anyone?) it would be silly not to.
Motobecane Fantom Outlaw commuter bike, not bad at all by ccorlew, on Flickr
Roubaix, complete with white wall tires, because it pleases me. by ccorlew, on Flickr
#40
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
BTW, you certainly don't need to spend $11K, or even $1K for a bike that people admire. People stare at me and my mtn bike (converted with skinny tires) all the time. They start up conversations, ask me questions, wave hello and smile at me every time I go out riding.
I spent well under $1K on my bike.
I spent well under $1K on my bike.
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Above ground, Walnut Creek, Ca
Posts: 6,681
Bikes: 8 ss bikes, 1 5-speed touring bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
Non gear sports: running, tennis, bowling
Even at $10,000 for a bike, I'll bet the enjoyment time per dollar is generally a lot higher than for personal airplanes, fancy cars, or boats.
I wonder if there are people on the Yachting forums who make videos about how no one really NEEDS a gigabuck yacht and most folks should be buying the budget model from YachtsDirect.com for half a mil or less because this is just getting ridiculous.
Even at $10,000 for a bike, I'll bet the enjoyment time per dollar is generally a lot higher than for personal airplanes, fancy cars, or boats.
I wonder if there are people on the Yachting forums who make videos about how no one really NEEDS a gigabuck yacht and most folks should be buying the budget model from YachtsDirect.com for half a mil or less because this is just getting ridiculous.
that people spend money on stuff they don't need is not so irritating... it's that i'm NOT BENEFITING from any of it. that's what makes me sick. for the love of god, throw some of it MY way!
Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 03-21-14 at 09:21 PM.
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
At the risk of replying to a Lazarus thread, and off topic to boot...
Actually, bowling is *worse* than cycling when it comes to the perceived role of equipment. Go spend some time on ballreviews.com or bowlingchat.net, and what you read will make your head spin.
Originally Posted by [B
DiabloScott[/B];16600178]Non gear sports: running, tennis, bowling
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Robert P
General Cycling Discussion
91
05-26-14 07:31 PM