Disc brakes in Tour de France
In the video (go to 7:41), it shows Alaphilippe's bike in stage 1 seems to have locked the front wheel (I don't think I've ever seen that happen to a rim brake wheel unless the wheel is pretty much taco'ed). I'm wondering if Alaphilippe crashed and caused the disc to bend and thus causing his front wheel to lock like that? Did a crash knock the brake caliper way out of position causing the lockup? Or did the front brake just lock up first (for whatever reason), causing Alaphilippe to dismount? Alaphilippe's jersey and bib didn't have any rips or tears on them, so I don't think he crashed, so it could simply just be a brake issue, me think.
Then the mech from the sag car tried to remove the skewer with a power drill (ugh what?) and that didn't work either. Then at 12:33, one of Lopez of Astana apparently locked up his rear wheel in a turn and slid out. Would he have locked it up if he was on rim brakes? I thought disc offer better modulation and feel? Once thing for sure, changing wheels with disc is a lot more complicated than good ole rim brake wheels. And I thought disc brake is supposed to shine in this very condition of stage 1, ie, wet. But as it turns out, stage 1 was filled with crashes. Perhaps guys have forgetten how to ride in a peloton after a long layoff? let's hope the rest of the Tour is better than stage 1 carnage! |
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Okay, I'll play along for one post ...
Alaphillippe was taken out by another rider, and the crash damaged his bike. (Apparently, it was not badly damaged, because he was back riding it a few minutes later.) Lopez locked up his rear wheel and slid out. Yes, his bike has disc brakes. So what? Sivakov crashed twice with rim brakes. |
Thread moved from General Cycling to Pro Cycling for the Fans
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
(Post 21669429)
Okay, I'll play along for one post ...
Alaphillippe was taken out by another rider, and the crash damaged his bike. (Apparently, it was not badly damaged, because he was back riding it a few minutes later.) Lopez locked up his rear wheel and slid out. Yes, his bike has disc brakes. So what? Sivakov crashed twice with rim brakes. What about all the carnage in the wet? Shouldn't disc brake suppose to shine here? you know, better feel, better modulation...etc |
Originally Posted by aclinjury
(Post 21669964)
Alaphilippe got a new bike.
What about all the carnage in the wet? Shouldn't disc brake suppose to shine here? Racers and DSes decided to prioritize speed over wet weather traction in their tire choice...so of course discs exceeded the traction of the tires. Is that the fault of brakes--or DSes? |
Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
(Post 21669968)
I remember far worse days of carnage in-the-wet with carbon rims and rim-brakes.
Racers and DSes decided to prioritize speed over wet weather traction in their tire choice...so of course discs exceeded the traction of the tires. Is that the fault of brakes--or DSes? |
How long before we see ABS in the peloton?
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Originally Posted by john m flores
(Post 21672753)
How long before we see ABS in the peloton?
I think if the UCI allowed 12# bikes we wouldn't see discs now, but it is either add ballast (lead) or fill that gap with other stuff. My view on the electronics is that I'm already not a fan on electronic shifting, Power Meters, HRM or GPS or RADIOS. Adding a computer for disc modulation is just further down the slippery slope. Knowing how to take a corner, how to brake, when to attack, how hard to pedal as well as how to setup the bike (light vs sturdy) is all part of the sport I want to keep. |
ABS requires a lot more power than puny derailleurs.
Also, there would be years of macho posturing about how people think they can do better by feel. |
Originally Posted by aclinjury
(Post 21669986)
well people believe disc gives better modulation and better feel, especially in the wet. This is supposed to allow them to feel the limit of traction without exceeding it. That's the whole idea of better feel and modulation, isn't it? If guys are still riding faster than they should be, then is it because they're not "feeling and modulating"?
Nothing is perfect and will stop 100% of crashes; especially when end-users are willing to gamble for marginal gains. I'd bet money we'd have seen much more of a demolition derby on that stage with everyone using carbon brakes and rim brakes. This is a very atypical TdF which has made it far more interesting. Usually the first 8 days of TdF are 200km long flat prairie rides about as technical/difficult as walking on a sidewalk--where everyone can shake out the legs and bike handling skills...and absolutely nothing notworthy happens until the last 500 meters. This time we had mountain climbs and technical blind-turn mountain descents in complete downpours on Day 1, after most of the peloton had barely any racing on their legs in months. BTW if you watched La Course.....the ladies had a dry non-eventful day of it. |
So ... riders crashed with both rim and disc brakes ... this proves discs are bad. BF Logic.
Discs are supposed to be easier to modulate. Therefore, if a rider crashes with discs .... what everyone who has ever ridden discs knows to be true, suddenly becomes untrue. Because of course no one racing hard in the wet in the TdF would ever push just a tad too hard ..... BF Logic. If a bike is involved in a wreck and damaged, that is normal, unless the bike has disc brakes. If the bike had discs, the discs caused the damage, not the crash. BF Logic. I am interested in seeing what gear different riders and teams use, but I could not care less if they choose one brand or one system over another. It was interesting to see that four of six (I think) of the bikes in the breakaway in Stage Four (a climbing stage with a summit finish) had disc brakes. I do not recall what kind of brakes the top three finishers had. I don't watch bike racing to have my prejudices supported, or to be offended by bicycles, ... and I have no personal favorite in braking systems, having used pretty much every variety but drum brakes. But obviously, a lot of people here need to have their preferences validated by the pro peleton. BF Logic. I am not interested in all the Sturm und Drang over brakes ... but I will say, posters here are embarrassing themselves. the crazy posts, removed from reality, justified by prejudice, devoid of fact .... Well, if those are the posts people Want to make, they are certainly free to do so. |
Disks are great - until they aren't. They can be a massive P.I.T. to change. Until the speed of change issues can be mitigated, I'd not be surprised to see substantial movement back to rim brakes.
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Originally Posted by john m flores
(Post 21672753)
How long before we see ABS in the peloton?
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Originally Posted by Litespud
(Post 21680180)
ABS would be of marginal use here - ABS detects wheel rotation slowing down preparatory to lockup and eases up on the braking. What we saw in many cases was tires losing traction and sliding out sideways on corners - likely still rotating, but the wet surface defeated the ~ 1 square inch of contact patch under each tire. Unlike ABS and stability control in a car which can rescue the situation before it becomes irrecoverable, once a bike tire starts sliding sideways, there’s no way of recovering bar rider skill/luck. Maybe one day when bikes have built-in gyros that can keep them upright, but until then....
I do not know if the crashes were cause by simply cornering too fast for the conditions or the light touch of the brakes as described above. |
Yeah, discs have been doing well... Nans Peters won yesterday on rim brakes, on a hilly stage with warp-speed descents. His teammates on AG2R also did well in the KOM category and made up time on the GC.
Today: another hilly one, and Podacar, another first-timer, won the stage on rim brakes. And who is now leading the GC? Roglic on rim brakes. Discs seem to do much better on the pancake-flat stages, where the (rotating) weight penalty is not exposed. And where discs can continue to serve as a marketing vehicle aimed at flabby dentists with gold cards. |
It's amazing how desperate some people are to avoid accepting the truth: disk brakes work better.
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Originally Posted by OBoile
(Post 21680863)
It's amazing how desperate some people are to avoid accepting the truth: disk brakes work better.
Stages 1- 9 of the TdF - Rim braked bikes win 8 (check my counts). Only green jersey is disc braked, PDot, yellow, white using rim. Correlation is not causation, but the argument around stopping power is missing the point of what is the best tool for winning. |
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
(Post 21680724)
Yeah, discs have been doing well... Nans Peters won yesterday on rim brakes, on a hilly stage with warp-speed descents. His teammates on AG2R also did well in the KOM category and made up time on the GC.
Today: another hilly one, and Podacar, another first-timer, won the stage on rim brakes. And who is now leading the GC? Roglic on rim brakes. Discs seem to do much better on the pancake-flat stages, where the (rotating) weight penalty is not exposed. And where discs can continue to serve as a marketing vehicle aimed at flabby dentists with gold cards. As to the "dentists with gold cards" insult which you seem to like repeating, your bile is your problem. |
Originally Posted by Doge
(Post 21680967)
They provide more stopping force.
Stages 1- 9 of the TdF - Rim braked bikes win 8 (check my counts). Only green jersey is disc braked, PDot, yellow, white using rim. Correlation is not causation, but the argument around stopping power is missing the point of what is the best tool for winning. |
Originally Posted by MinnMan
(Post 21681034)
Correct. And with such a small sample, not adjusting for whether teams with and without disc brakes are equally distributed in number and strength, it's also not so great for persuasion.
I'd expect the teams using rim brakes had the choice. I'd like to hear their arguments. For right now, it is hard to argue with their selections. |
Originally Posted by MinnMan
(Post 21680998)
The "rotating weight penalty" is fictional and was debunked with great effectiveness by tomato coupe in the Team Ineos-Rim Brake thread. I recommend it to anybody still retaining that non-physical myth.
As to the "dentists with gold cards" insult which you seem to like repeating, your bile is your problem. |
Originally Posted by Doge
(Post 21681043)
It is certainly not conclusive, but it should be watched. We can look at other races too. I am in agreement discs stop better, but there is more to winning than stopping and some things may be worth compromising on for convenience and maybe even feel.
I'd expect the teams using rim brakes had the choice. I'd like to hear their arguments. For right now, it is hard to argue with their selections. |
Originally Posted by Doge
(Post 21681049)
I do not agree. You have more than rotating weight. The lever arm is a factor in feel in side to side movement that TC just ignored and went right over. He also used the disc weight and didn't consider the heavier hubs and bolts.
If you want to make an argument about body forces, it isn't a matter of opinion. |
In this argument about rim vs disc brakes pertaining to race performance, and therefore speed, there is repeated reference to the weight difference. Of course, with the UCI weight minimum of 6.8 kg (15 lbs), this really isn't a factor because highest-end bikes with both types of brakes generally would be lighter than this and most teams are actually deliberately adding weight to their bikes to keep them from being below the minimum.
References to "rotating weight" are hogwash. It surprises me that the argument hasn't turned to aerodynamics, because it has long been argued that disc brakes are less aero than rim brakes. Without a specific bicycle design, it is impossible to prove or disprove this general thesis. However, the limited wind tunnel data that I have seen suggests that this also isn't necessarily a factor. For example, https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Disc...Drag_6073.html |
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