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Old 07-16-21, 09:41 PM
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OK. he hasn't really dramatically wiped out the filed in a single, suspicious effort
But Slovenians are up ahead of the field except for those who abandoned due to accidents.

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Old 07-16-21, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Minus Seven was an incredible specimen, but he also had by far the most sophisticated doping program.
That's the thing about Lance... he wasn't an incredible specimen. Not within the tiny, tiny right-hand tail of the human-being-riding-a-bicycle distribution where every single person who's ever been paid to do it hangs out. In the upper 10-15% of that however-many-sigma slice, but by no means the physical specimen that we saw in the early Naughties.

Without that "by far the most sophisticated doping program," he would have been a better version of the rider he was in the mid-1990s. World Road Champion Lance Armstrong never wins a Tour de France. More Kelly than LeMond, ya know? (Not that he would have been "the next Sean Kelly," because there can be only one, but when he was being touted as "the next LeMond," just about everyone was rolling their eyes.)

I'll say it flat out: If either of these things were possible, which they weren't, an undoped Lance Armstrong could not have won a clean Tour de France. Paris-Nice? Milan - San Remo? Another rainbow jersey? Maybe even a Giro or Vuelta in a weird year? Yeah, I can see all of those. But the Tour? Nope. Not buying it.

--Shannon
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Old 02-16-24, 06:21 PM
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Now That Cycling is Clean

Here it is folks, apparently coming soon. The Enhanced Games. Funded by some of the world's most insightful billionaires. Considering the Olympics boring with underfunded athletes in poverty.
Doping is welcome and apparently openly encouraged. Cycling is on the list
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Old 02-16-24, 06:37 PM
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It's already enhanced.
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Old 02-16-24, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Medium Size Dog
Here it is folks, apparently coming soon. The Enhanced Games. Funded by some of the world's most insightful billionaires. Considering the Olympics boring with underfunded athletes in poverty.
Doping is welcome and apparently openly encouraged. Cycling is on the list
Kind of belongs in its own thread and the info I've seen didn't include cycling, but anyways....

Immoral to encourage people to dope to the gills, but I'll bet on a huge audience, if they pull it off.
However revolting, I'm sure there's no limit to the number of people who will be thrilled to watch sprinters and gymnasts in cardiac arrest in the middle of competition.
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Old 02-20-24, 02:57 PM
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Lance actually WAS a special creature. His V02 is higher (is that the term?) than other people.

FTR, I also do what I can to get ahead and I only take spin class - and only the noncompetative ones! It doesn't mean that I don't get a protein s hake with some caffeine added beforehand!
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Old 02-25-24, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by HeyItsSara
Lance actually WAS a special creature. His V02 is higher (is that the term?) than other people.
Do you think that wasn’t true of every other rider in the Tour? He was good but winning the TdF means you have to be the best 0.00000025% in the world at climbing, AND lucky.
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Old 02-25-24, 05:36 AM
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Eh, luck favors the bold and prepared.

Lance was all that in spades, and doped to the gills. He needed to be not unlucky, and he was[n't?]. Is that the same as lucky? IDK.
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Old 02-25-24, 07:54 AM
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I've thoroughly enjoyed all the cycling I've watched since the 80's. I have no idea what anyone does or doesn't do, or how or why, no one does. Where would I begin ?.... "in the beginning ... " It's not as if I'm some sort of Angel myself, so who am I to go throwing stones ? To pretend it didn't happen though by wiping my behind with it and tossing it in the bin only admits my part in it. Like ASO pretending it never happened. Wiping the records only admits their part in it, like trying to hide the evidence under the rug. surely no one will notice the lump underneath it . "It wasn't me" Ahahahahahahaa !

To look at every successful cyclist/athlete though with an eye of suspicion, well why even bother watching then ? To play sporting cop ? To be offended by my own viewing ? To expose them so I can say "look at me, I'm so holy and they're not ?" Yeah .. been there and done that and I look pretty stupid.

I'll still watch for sure. Maybe even more than the competition, I like the pictures,the cinematic quality to it all.... the colors and scenery and stuff. The Happening
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Old 02-25-24, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ShannonM
That's the thing about Lance... he wasn't an incredible specimen. Not within the tiny, tiny right-hand tail of the human-being-riding-a-bicycle distribution where every single person who's ever been paid to do it hangs out. In the upper 10-15% of that however-many-sigma slice, but by no means the physical specimen that we saw in the early Naughties.

Without that "by far the most sophisticated doping program," he would have been a better version of the rider he was in the mid-1990s. World Road Champion Lance Armstrong never wins a Tour de France. More Kelly than LeMond, ya know? (Not that he would have been "the next Sean Kelly," because there can be only one, but when he was being touted as "the next LeMond," just about everyone was rolling their eyes.)

I'll say it flat out: If either of these things were possible, which they weren't, an undoped Lance Armstrong could not have won a clean Tour de France. Paris-Nice? Milan - San Remo? Another rainbow jersey? Maybe even a Giro or Vuelta in a weird year? Yeah, I can see all of those. But the Tour? Nope. Not buying it.

--Shannon
Why are you still beating up on Lance? Lance is over. Done. Erased. This thread is not about Lance. But y'all can't let it go. Who doesn't know that an undoped Lance wouldn't win a TdF? I would get all the continuing ire if Lance was the first and last doper in the history of sport, but he is (WAS) just one of thousands, but he got caught and made an example of, like few others before (or since). It's enough, I think. Let him go. We have bigger fish to fry. Men are claiming to be women, and slaughtering records left and right, because that is really the only wide open frontier of competition left open to exploitation. All a doped man can do against gender peers is squeak by the PB in a given event. A Trans athlete. A doped Trans athlete ... can obliterate the PB in a given event. It's so tempting that I'm pretty sure that is where the action will be for some time to come. Get your popcorn and come along. Leave Lance to the scorn and shame of the history books.
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Old 02-26-24, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by slcbob
Eh, luck favors the bold and prepared.

Lance was all that in spades, and doped to the gills. He needed to be not unlucky, and he was[n't?]. Is that the same as lucky? IDK.
Yeah, the first bit was the important part
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Old 02-26-24, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Why are you still beating up on Lance? Lance is over. Done. Erased. This thread is not about Lance. But y'all can't let it go. Who doesn't know that an undoped Lance wouldn't win a TdF? I would get all the continuing ire if Lance was the first and last doper in the history of sport, but he is (WAS) just one of thousands, but he got caught and made an example of, like few others before (or since). It's enough, I think. Let him go. We have bigger fish to fry. Men are claiming to be women, and slaughtering records left and right, because that is really the only wide open frontier of competition left open to exploitation. All a doped man can do against gender peers is squeak by the PB in a given event. A Trans athlete. A doped Trans athlete ... can obliterate the PB in a given event. It's so tempting that I'm pretty sure that is where the action will be for some time to come. Get your popcorn and come along. Leave Lance to the scorn and shame of the history books.
Slaughtering left and right? I think Lia Thomas (who has since performed much worse) won a 500m swimming event and Veronica Ivy winning a gold at the Masters track cycling (but no records)

I think it’s a topic that is really challenging and I know sports authoroties are grappling with it but not many trans women have won much that I can find. You have a longer list?

and you know there are trans men athletes too right? If this was just a convenient way to “pretend” and cheat, why would that happen?

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Old 02-26-24, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by choddo
Slaughtering left and right? I think Lia Thomas (who has since performed much worse) won a 500m swimming event and Veronica Ivy winning a gold at the Masters track cycling (but no records)

I think it’s a topic that is really challenging and I know sports authoroties are grappling with it but not many trans women have won much that I can find. You have a longer list?

and you know there are trans men athletes too right? If this was just a convenient way to “pretend” and cheat, why would that happen?
Of course there is a longer list than just Lia Thomas and Veronica Ivy. The names aren't important. The dozens of big city 5K's, Swimming and Triathlon events, etc. that are being infiltrated with formerly male athletes is growing. It is all but stopped at the International level by contested bans on athletes that transitioned after puberty and/or less than 3 years prior to competing as women. That there is any controversy about this is troubling. There is over the top vilification for a doped male athlete competing against other doped male athlete that wins an event by scant fractions of a second but there is praise for a formerly male athlete that wins a cycling event by 15 minutes. If using inherent biology against competitors that lack those same secondary sex characteristics is not also seen as using PED ... I don't know ...
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Old 02-26-24, 01:47 PM
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Fans demanded something be done about cheating in Track and Field athletics. Team USA is now an International also ran. Is anyone still watching? Fans demanded something be done about cheating in Major League Baseball. Done. Gone are the 'long balls' ... and the fans. Armstrong and Landis are gone but y'all are still wondering if Cycling is clean enough. When and if it is, will it be exciting enough to keep FANS? Based on what I've seen happen in other sports I think the answer has to be, "nope". Are y'all ok with that? Doesn't trip my trigger either way.
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Old 02-26-24, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by HeyItsSara
Lance actually WAS a special creature. His V02 is higher (is that the term?) than other people.
Most things I've read say Lance was around 84-85, which is very good, but not at the pinnacle among elite endurance athletes. https://www.topendsports.com/testing/records/vo2max.htm

Reportedly, Jonas Vingegaard's VO2 max was tested at 97 when he was 17. However, I don't know how accurate that information is.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:56 PM
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Of course possible/potential V02 max increases. Gymnastic moves are more complex now as compared to years ago, as are ice skating moves. And times to finish a mile, marathon etc. For his time, yes Lance was a special creature.
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Old 03-08-24, 08:26 AM
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https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ant...s-dropped-out/
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Old 03-08-24, 08:42 AM
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It's all about mitochondria counts

To build up your mitochondria count, take a bunch of steroids and train hard when you have peak testosterone (ages 17 - 19). And of course, during this time, avoid competitions with testing. These extra mitochondria will power your performance over the next couple of decades.
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Old 03-08-24, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Of course there is a longer list than just Lia Thomas and Veronica Ivy. The names aren't important. The dozens of big city 5K's, Swimming and Triathlon events, etc. that are being infiltrated with formerly male athletes is growing. It is all but stopped at the International level by contested bans on athletes that transitioned after puberty and/or less than 3 years prior to competing as women. That there is any controversy about this is troubling. There is over the top vilification for a doped male athlete competing against other doped male athlete that wins an event by scant fractions of a second but there is praise for a formerly male athlete that wins a cycling event by 15 minutes. If using inherent biology against competitors that lack those same secondary sex characteristics is not also seen as using PED ... I don't know ...
Hormones do not determine sex. DNA determines sex. Male persons of any sort have no place in competitions intended for female persons. Period.

And the only kind of phobe that I am is a ****sciencephobe. That would be science heavily loaded with excrement.
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Old 03-08-24, 02:34 PM
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IDK whether to +1 your testosterone fueled rage and intolerance, Iron Chuck, or tell you to lighten up because it ain't that simple.

I sort of think it should be that simple, but that's not where we are at the moment. No matter how vigorously one wishes to mansplain it.

I have a lot of sympathy for the would-be transgender athlete but I think I have more empathy for the young women who wish to compete on a level playing field. Life is full of hard choices. I don't know that over-complicating them makes them any less hard or more fair. But I don't pretend to have a monopoly on the way here.
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Old 03-08-24, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by slcbob
IDK whether to +1 your testosterone fueled rage and intolerance, Iron Chuck, or tell you to lighten up because it ain't that simple.

I sort of think it should be that simple, but that's not where we are at the moment. No matter how vigorously one wishes to mansplain it.

I have a lot of sympathy for the would-be transgender athlete but I think I have more empathy for the young women who wish to compete on a level playing field. Life is full of hard choices. I don't know that over-complicating them makes them any less hard or more fair. But I don't pretend to have a monopoly on the way here.
+1, but (1) experience indicates that nuance seldom gets the respect it deserves and (2) if this gets any deeper, you guys are going to have to take it over to P&R.
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Old 03-10-24, 09:32 AM
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At the risk of ...

Genetic female does not seem to be a nuance of any species. Genetic males and genetic females of the species **** sapiens (with the exception of a few genetic anomalies) are clearly defined and recognizable.

Perhaps "cheating" needs to be redefined to accommodate opinion instead of some silly collection of facts.

Thanks for your time and have a nice day
Charlie
​​​​​It's really funny that the genus of our species is a banned term
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Old 03-12-24, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by James1964
To build up your mitochondria count, take a bunch of steroids and train hard when you have peak testosterone (ages 17 - 19). And of course, during this time, avoid competitions with testing. These extra mitochondria will power your performance over the next couple of decades.
If you want to increase your mitochondria content (count, size, surface area), do more training volume. Mitochondria content primarily responds to volume.

To increase mitochondrial function (energy production), do high intensity.

It's not clear (to me) that hard training at a young age will have an effect on mitochondria several years later. Both content and function decrease with detraining (or reduced training).
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