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Is La Vuelta > Giro d'italia ?

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Is La Vuelta > Giro d'italia ?

Old 08-05-23, 03:48 PM
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Doge
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Is La Vuelta > Giro d'italia ?

The Vuelta is now the most significant GT next to the TdF. It didn't used to be that way.

This year ... the TdF delivered big, but was missing some riders we will see in the Vuelta.
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Old 08-05-23, 08:28 PM
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I think so. Lots of climbing and a really great fan base. Was awesome to see the tour starting in basque country this year.
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Old 08-06-23, 03:58 AM
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can't remember how long ago the vuelta got moved to the current, late summer slot but seems to work well. everyone wants to ride le tour because
it's the biggest but not everyone can. injuries, personal/team objectives, seniority, ability/course appropriate to said ability and team needs, sponsor demands,
etc, contribute into missing the tdf. giro butts up against the classics so it's a "classics campaign" (and maybe a short, 5-7 stage weeklong tour or two) or the giro.
pretty tuff to dabble in both the classics and giro tho.

vuelta has been my fave stage race for quite some time as i may have lead a cheer or two for it in the past. so many things come into play. guys trying to impress a new team.
guys trying to impress their old team for retention. guys trying to p*ss off their old team. guys riding for a contract-any contract. guys riding to salvage a bleepy season.
guys riding coming back from illness/injury. guys riding because they're good enuff to lead (or be protected/2nd in command) any other race except the tdf and they want to taste gt gc victory.
guys riding because they're young and a vet is saving it/got drafted as a leadout for the worlds. guys riding because they're really really young and have impressed here and there but need better competition.
guys riding for one last sunset before retirement. guys riding to gauge their potential to ride the tdf, classics, weeklong stage races. guys riding to refine (or rework) their strengths.
guys looking to go out in a blaze of glory in a grand tour to set up personal/team expectations for the coming year. guys trying to impress after being buried/blocked by another sprinter/climber/rouleur.

amount of intensity tends to be high. length of stages tend to be shorter.

love love la vuelta because it (to me) seems to encapsulate a broader "range" of professional cycling at the highest level without as much pressure as le tour. it isn't necessarily the top of the pops but it is for some stages.
no tdf is ever perfect. multiple riders are always injured, unavailable or underperform for le tour. the expectations are ridiculous. for la vuelta, we are grateful for those that do appear and compete and look to perform on whatever stage(s).

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Old 08-11-23, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by diphthong
can't remember how long ago the vuelta got moved to the current, late summer slot but seems to work well.
I was wondering about that too so just looked it up. It was moved to September in 1995. Canít believe it was that long ago. Almost 30 years. I was thinking it was only like 15 years ago. Time flies.

Dan
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Old 08-12-23, 03:05 PM
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This year we get the World ITT champ who was the RR World Champ last year.
And the two (three) Jumbo guys that skipped worlds.

I'm really wanting to see how defending champ and ITT world champ Remco does vs TdF Jonus and 3 time winner, and current Giro winner teammate Primož (who is the leader? I expect Jonus) and Sepp. Jumbo is FULL power here.

Remco is outgunned and maybe should have also sat out Worlds. There will be excuses about fatigue by at least one not winning.
Ineos has Geraint. Old but still strong.

Looks like UAE is sitting this one out. No disrespect to the team but Jo„o is not Tadej. Why World Championships over Vuelta - I don't know. I do not know the details behind his 21st TT place. It is not his wrist.

Last time Remco and Tadej started together it did not work out well for Tadej. I was hoping to see that showdown too.

Eric and Richard fight for podium or 4th?

Things seem to often go in ways you can't predict. I'm excited to see Remco vs Jumbo (individual vs Team).

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Old 08-13-23, 04:11 AM
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thought jv from jv was skipping the proceedings. likely wrong as usual. there are a few riders that i'm curious about with a 3-hour...er...week tour and he ain't one of them .
ayuso..can he jump up from third? is thymen riding? kšmna? some of the departing ineos riders (tgh, sivakov)...are they with the new teams yet?
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Old 08-14-23, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge
Remco is outgunned and maybe should have also sat out Worlds. There will be excuses about fatigue by at least one not winning.
Worlds is not fatiguing like a GT.** It is something that requires a peak and gets in the way of other builds and recoveries, but it just a one day race. +/- a TT. There is a lot of politics in the going or not going, too. Can you imagine the riots in Belgium if the defending champ wasn't selected or didn't show?

** Unless it is Down Under with all the travel and time zones and circadian mumbo jumbo. BTW, look at what MVDP did with a good night's rest.
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Old 08-14-23, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by _ForceD_
I was wondering about that too so just looked it up. It was moved to September in 1995. Canít believe it was that long ago. Almost 30 years. I was thinking it was only like 15 years ago. Time flies.

Dan
Jeez. Last time it was raced on the old calendar, some of them might have been wearing helmets! ?? MTV existed, wasn't even new, and was still showing music videos now and then.
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Old 08-14-23, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by diphthong
thought jv from jv was skipping the proceedings.
Jonas announced he was riding the Vuelta not long after he finished the Tour.

Remco's reaction..."$#!+"

I suspect that Jonas will be the leader for Jumbo, shooting for the Tour-Vuelta double.
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Old 08-14-23, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Jonas announced he was riding the Vuelta not long after he finished the Tour.

Remco's reaction..."$#!+"

I suspect that Jonas will be the leader for Jumbo, shooting for the Tour-Vuelta double.

if roglic rides la vuelta as well, good chance jumbo vista could take two podium spots (if roglic can keep the rubber side up...**edit**...er...down).

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Old 08-14-23, 01:34 PM
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Jumbo is shooting for a calendar year Grand Tour threepeat. IDK if that's unprecedented or just very rare.

I think it's pretty obvious they'll go in with two leaders and pray a late flat or such doesn't force them at some point to make a tough choice. If it does, it will be a lot tougher call for the DS than in the alleged "co-leader" thing that Pogacar and Yates had going on. That'll be plenty of fodder for the pundits.
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Old 08-14-23, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by slcbob
Jumbo is shooting for a calendar year Grand Tour threepeat. IDK if that's unprecedented or just very rare.

I think it's pretty obvious they'll go in with two leaders and pray a late flat or such doesn't force them at some point to make a tough choice. If it does, it will be a lot tougher call for the DS than in the alleged "co-leader" thing that Pogacar and Yates had going on. That'll be plenty of fodder for the pundits.
wanna say us postal/discovery did it semi-recently with he who shall not be named, heras and salvodelli at one point. could be wrong as usual.

hoping foss rides la vuelta for team jv as well but have lost track of his "programme" and where he stands for the rest of the year. pretty sure seppuku has earned the vuelta time off. would love to see him ride it tho.

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Old 08-14-23, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by diphthong
hoping foss rides la vuelta for team jv as well but have lost track of his "programme" and where he stands for the rest of the year. pretty sure seppuku has earned the vuelta time off. would love to see him ride it tho.
Nope and nope, at least as of the current startlist. https://www.procyclingstats.com/race...list/startlist
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Old 08-14-23, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
The Vuelta is now the most significant GT next to the TdF. It didn't used to be that way.

This year ... the TdF delivered big, but was missing some riders we will see in the Vuelta.
Well I love all the Gran Tours

The Giro is my favorite

No doubt TDF is the big bully on the block

Still like the Giro better

TDF was a slugfest this year

The new Guard is really good. So many stars from the same generation,

Amazing
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Old 08-15-23, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by slcbob
Nope and nope, at least as of the current startlist. https://www.procyclingstats.com/race...list/startlist
seppuku was listed but wouldn't be surprised if they throw someone else in there. whom else is gonna crush those mountains for team jv tho?

last week looks especially delicious. stages 13, 14, 18 and 20 look to be barnburners. stage 20 appears to have wakeup/shakeup in mind...all up or down.
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Old 08-15-23, 06:15 AM
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from a viewer's standpoint, I found the Vuelta last year to not be as pretty as the other two GTs. Seemed like there was a lot of multi lane highways and urban settings. I can't get enough castles and cathedrals from the helicopter view.
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Old 08-15-23, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
The Vuelta is now the most significant GT next to the TdF. It didn't used to be that way.

This year ... the TdF delivered big, but was missing some riders we will see in the Vuelta.
I don't think it is generally or even broadly accepted that the Vuelta ranks above the Giro in terms of significance, prestige, or whatever the heck we're talking about here.

I do agree it is universally accepted that the Vuelta used to be the red headed stepchild of the three GTs but is now right up there with the Giro. Both are well behind Le Tour in significance.

ASO has owned the Vuelta since 2014 (longer than I thought). It's star was on the rise before that, but it's certainly not doing it any harm to be operated and promoted by that juggernaut. RCS still owns the Giro.

Interesting stat here which has the Vuelta slightly above the Giro in terms of startlist quality over the last few years. It's weird how things work out with so many folks using the Vuelta to try to salvage this season after a derailed other plan, or grab a ride for next season. The big thing the Giro seems to have going for it of late is a spot for the second superstar to go be protected rider, plus the risk of snow cancelling the Cima Coppi or other passes, which is less photogenic. Plus some beautiful country and spirited tifosi.
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Old 08-16-23, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by slcbob

Interesting stat here which has the Vuelta slightly above the Giro in terms of startlist quality over the last few years. It's weird how things work out with so many folks using the Vuelta to try to salvage this season after a derailed other plan, or grab a ride for next season. The big thing the Giro seems to have going for it of late is a spot for the second superstar to go be protected rider, plus the risk of snow cancelling the Cima Coppi or other passes, which is less photogenic. Plus some beautiful country and spirited tifosi.
I feel like the Vuelta really benefits from being after the Tour in this regard. In addition to guys trying to salvage their season, the top pros can ride it without having to consider what kind of effect it will have on their Tour fitness. Plus, it seems that the "second superstar" guys often end up doing the Giro/Vuelta double anyway.
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Old 08-17-23, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by slcbob
I don't think it is generally or even broadly accepted that the Vuelta ranks above the Giro in terms of significance, prestige, or whatever the heck we're talking about here.

I do agree it is universally accepted that the Vuelta used to be the red headed stepchild of the three GTs but is now right up there with the Giro. Both are well behind Le Tour in significance.

ASO has owned the Vuelta since 2014 (longer than I thought). It's star was on the rise before that, but it's certainly not doing it any harm to be operated and promoted by that juggernaut. RCS still owns the Giro.

Interesting stat here which has the Vuelta slightly above the Giro in terms of startlist quality over the last few years. It's weird how things work out with so many folks using the Vuelta to try to salvage this season after a derailed other plan, or grab a ride for next season. The big thing the Giro seems to have going for it of late is a spot for the second superstar to go be protected rider, plus the risk of snow cancelling the Cima Coppi or other passes, which is less photogenic. Plus some beautiful country and spirited tifosi.
TDF aside which everyone agrees is the big brand with the most stars.
I agree the Giro has a bigger brand and more history as you indicate.
My point was at least this year, and I see this becoming a pattern, that the Vuelta has more stars.
The big TdF stars cannot risk the TdF by doing the Giro.
By Vuelta time it is just gravy for everyone. Some are too burned out. Some aren't.
The bigger head-to-head matchups will be in the Vuelta vs Giro.
Over time, that may lead to a bigger, more marketable brand. Maybe ASO has this in mind.
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Old 08-18-23, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge
TDF aside which everyone agrees is the big brand with the most stars.
I agree the Giro has a bigger brand and more history as you indicate.
My point was at least this year, and I see this becoming a pattern, that the Vuelta has more stars.
The big TdF stars cannot risk the TdF by doing the Giro.
By Vuelta time it is just gravy for everyone. Some are too burned out. Some aren't.
The bigger head-to-head matchups will be in the Vuelta vs Giro.
Over time, that may lead to a bigger, more marketable brand. Maybe ASO has this in mind.
bingo.
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Old 08-18-23, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge
TDF aside which everyone agrees is the big brand with the most stars.
I agree the Giro has a bigger brand and more history as you indicate.
My point was at least this year, and I see this becoming a pattern, that the Vuelta has more stars.
The big TdF stars cannot risk the TdF by doing the Giro.
By Vuelta time it is just gravy for everyone. Some are too burned out. Some aren't.
The bigger head-to-head matchups will be in the Vuelta vs Giro.
Over time, that may lead to a bigger, more marketable brand. Maybe ASO has this in mind.
True. And in recent years some of the GC Giro winners (Hindley, Carapaz, Hart) are, IMHO, people who would be unlikely to compete at the highest level at the TdF or the Vuelta.
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Old 08-18-23, 08:06 AM
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I am a JV fan, but I almost wish they were not showing up with so much fire power.
I wanted to see a Remco match up, but I don't think he has any hope vs that team. I'm even wondering if that isn't why other riders got a bit tired.

Next year we can see some matchups in the classics which is not what everyone is peaking for, but still fun. Unfortunately, the TdF has the same. Not the Quick Step is not a good team, but they are at the bottom of the JV, UAE, Ineos group. I guess that is why there are contract buy out rumors. One of those 3 teams needs a strong GC leader.
I'd like to see Remco in that spot, but not sure we are going to see anyone pony up those buy out EURs for him. I thought we might have heard more Primoz move rumors by now - maybe after the Vuelta.
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Old 08-18-23, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
True. And in recent years some of the GC Giro winners (Hindley, Carapaz, Hart) are, IMHO, people who would be unlikely to compete at the highest level at the TdF or the Vuelta.
harsh. carapaz has been in la vuelta red and def been competitive in the tdf here and there iirc. let him ride up the road. dismiss him and his olympic gold at your peril.

now that tgh has been "freed," we'll see what happens. lesser riders have won bleep because of circumstances/timing.
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Old 08-19-23, 12:44 PM
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Sidebar comment that the whole "top riders" thing we're waxing lyrically about here is specifically GC contenders. The sprinters and stage hunters and such have MUCH less problem doing back to back Grand Tours. And another angle in the "which GT is best" thing has got to include at least a little bit of attention to those that will never win the pink/yellow/red jersey at the end but sure liven up the proceedings. There have been some interesting experiments on the margins at the Giro and Vuelta that impact their attractiveness to various types of riders.

Even for the GC contenders, the decision of which GT(s) to pursue has to consider the parcours.

But back to the big hand waves for the top GC riders. Yes, absolutely, going to the Giro is signing away the chance to compete for the win at the Tour. And yes, it does seem far more folks do the Vuelta as Plan B than do the Giro as Plan B, because plans have had more opportunities to derail and recover. I still don't co-sign that a few extra folks on their plan B translates into overwhelming Giro-crushing premium head-to-head match ups. But I'm looking forward to seeing how this one goes and who is showing up in the spring with pink on their minds.

The race starts in a week. Yay. TTT around Barcelona. I'll be there at the end of Sept. Too bad I couldn't time it better!
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Old 08-19-23, 01:51 PM
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It'll be interesting to see how much Jonas has to give. 2 leader strategies often don't work out.
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Bikes: 1996 Eddy Merckx Titanium EX, 1989/90 Colnago Super(issimo?) Piu(?), 1990 Concorde Aquila(hit by car while riding), others in build queue "when I get the time"





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