LOOK!! This is why Basso,Ulrich Out Of Tour:Drugs!!
07-03-06, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by EURO
Steroids.
Still, the same question holds - can/does steroids cause testicular cancer? Is there a doctor in the house?
07-03-06, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ElJamoquio
Well, I wasn't thinking about steroids - I just had EPO in mind.
Still, the same question holds - can/does steroids cause testicular cancer? Is there a doctor in the house?
Still, the same question holds - can/does steroids cause testicular cancer? Is there a doctor in the house?
Apparently the kind of cancer Lance had wasn't too common but when it does occur it happens in men of an age range that Lance fell square into. So basically, based on that it just simply looks like he got cancer the old fashioned way. Just unlucky.Now, I have heard there as some growth hormone drugs that cyclist have been taking that DO cause cancer. Not sure if it would be testicular or not.
07-03-06, 03:56 PM
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This was posted by Frogge in this thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ancer+steroids
Quote: I happen to be a cancer doc. I believe Lance had an advance embrynal cell ca of the testis. This is a very rare cancer. Because of its rarity you would expect and increase to be quickly reported if associated with epo. Epo is a very benign drug. There are reports of rare cases of red cell aplasia that may be associated with epo. Anabolic steroids are a whole different kettle of fish, but I think gonadal atrophy is more common than any cancer. I very much doubt that Lance was doing any doping during his tour runs. The testing technology is good enough to pick up any doping that would have given any edge, any other doping would be extremely stupid given the risks(not medical,but financial). If Lance were caught doping not only would his titles be tainted,but his endorsements and foundation would be destroyed. He seems much too carefull to take the risks. Toodles,Frogge.
Quote: I happen to be a cancer doc. I believe Lance had an advance embrynal cell ca of the testis. This is a very rare cancer. Because of its rarity you would expect and increase to be quickly reported if associated with epo. Epo is a very benign drug. There are reports of rare cases of red cell aplasia that may be associated with epo. Anabolic steroids are a whole different kettle of fish, but I think gonadal atrophy is more common than any cancer. I very much doubt that Lance was doing any doping during his tour runs. The testing technology is good enough to pick up any doping that would have given any edge, any other doping would be extremely stupid given the risks(not medical,but financial). If Lance were caught doping not only would his titles be tainted,but his endorsements and foundation would be destroyed. He seems much too carefull to take the risks. Toodles,Frogge.
07-03-06, 05:43 PM
#479
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Originally Posted by ravenmore
This was posted by Frogge in this thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ancer+steroids
Quote: I happen to be a cancer doc. I believe Lance had an advance embrynal cell ca of the testis. This is a very rare cancer. Because of its rarity you would expect and increase to be quickly reported if associated with epo. Epo is a very benign drug. There are reports of rare cases of red cell aplasia that may be associated with epo. Anabolic steroids are a whole different kettle of fish, but I think gonadal atrophy is more common than any cancer. I very much doubt that Lance was doing any doping during his tour runs. The testing technology is good enough to pick up any doping that would have given any edge, any other doping would be extremely stupid given the risks(not medical,but financial). If Lance were caught doping not only would his titles be tainted,but his endorsements and foundation would be destroyed. He seems much too carefull to take the risks. Toodles,Frogge.
Quote: I happen to be a cancer doc. I believe Lance had an advance embrynal cell ca of the testis. This is a very rare cancer. Because of its rarity you would expect and increase to be quickly reported if associated with epo. Epo is a very benign drug. There are reports of rare cases of red cell aplasia that may be associated with epo. Anabolic steroids are a whole different kettle of fish, but I think gonadal atrophy is more common than any cancer. I very much doubt that Lance was doing any doping during his tour runs. The testing technology is good enough to pick up any doping that would have given any edge, any other doping would be extremely stupid given the risks(not medical,but financial). If Lance were caught doping not only would his titles be tainted,but his endorsements and foundation would be destroyed. He seems much too carefull to take the risks. Toodles,Frogge.
07-03-06, 08:16 PM
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True, True...
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07-04-06, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Hambone
I guess there is no way to get around the "he'd be replacing somebody issue" but it seems unfair (to the degree that "fair" fits here) that Vinokourav couldn't ride.
07-04-06, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cooker
Frogge is an expert on cancer, but not on doping. Events prove that doping during the tour frequently goes undetected for years at a time.
07-04-06, 03:52 PM
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A scandal!
The "Code of Silence" will go the way of the Dodo. When the Po-Po run in 20 punks, one is gonna' spill his guts....This is too big to onesie-twosie the accused, they are going to burn the lot.
A young scared rider, with years of pro riding on the horizon will start talking. I reckon the entire peloton (listed or otherwise, past and present) is shakin' in their cleats.
I volunteer for the first shift on the Tyler Hamilton suicide watch.
Everybody has been runnin' the junk since god knows when, and the busts have been relatively isolated, but now the UCI must clean house.
I liken this scandal to the old "Take a two hour lunch" syndrome. Everybody in the office does it, management is fully aware.....but there is a breaking point (there always is). Management starts cracking skulls en masse, and all are back to an honest half hour......for a little while. The company rebel goes for 40 minutes, takes a few with him......a year later...same problem again.
The "Code of Silence" will go the way of the Dodo. When the Po-Po run in 20 punks, one is gonna' spill his guts....This is too big to onesie-twosie the accused, they are going to burn the lot.
A young scared rider, with years of pro riding on the horizon will start talking. I reckon the entire peloton (listed or otherwise, past and present) is shakin' in their cleats.
I volunteer for the first shift on the Tyler Hamilton suicide watch.
Everybody has been runnin' the junk since god knows when, and the busts have been relatively isolated, but now the UCI must clean house.
I liken this scandal to the old "Take a two hour lunch" syndrome. Everybody in the office does it, management is fully aware.....but there is a breaking point (there always is). Management starts cracking skulls en masse, and all are back to an honest half hour......for a little while. The company rebel goes for 40 minutes, takes a few with him......a year later...same problem again.
07-05-06, 07:28 AM
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Well, this just sucks. I was on vacation during the weeks leading up to the Tour, so I missed all this news, then this morning I wanted to see how Ullrich and Basso were doing on the Tour. Hmmm, can't find them on the official TdF roster...Operacion Puerto? WTF?
I think I'm done paying attention to pro cycling.
I think I'm done paying attention to pro cycling.
07-05-06, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by va_cyclist
I think I'm done paying attention to pro cycling.
i felt the same way, but i can't stay away. keep checking in on the web, or listening to a live feed.
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07-05-06, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by va_cyclist
I think I'm done paying attention to pro cycling.
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07-05-06, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by va_cyclist
Well, this just sucks. I was on vacation during the weeks leading up to the Tour, so I missed all this news, then this morning I wanted to see how Ullrich and Basso were doing on the Tour. Hmmm, can't find them on the official TdF roster...Operacion Puerto? WTF?
I think I'm done paying attention to pro cycling.
I think I'm done paying attention to pro cycling.
07-05-06, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by va_cyclist
I think I'm done paying attention to pro cycling.
07-05-06, 01:49 PM
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Man. Lance is out and American's are all poised well. I wouldn't be suprised if there was a payoff to finger all the top riders to give american's a better chance. Also, this years tour is way more interesting. Who hell wants to sit around waiting for lance to win. BORING!
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07-05-06, 03:33 PM
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I did some number crunching. This is a crude calculation, but it demonstrates how close all of the contenders are.
1) Using the power calculator, and assuming 500 miles are really fought out between the GC's in the TDF the difference is very small. I plugged in an average slope of 2%, cadence of 90rpm's, and used the same height & weight measurements for all 3 wattages.
300 watts time 25 hours, 22 minutes and 50 seconds.
297 watts time 25 hours, 30 minutes and 36 seconds
295 watts time 25 hours, 38 minutes and 27 seconds
3 measley watts gives identical riders almost and 8 minute differece in time.
That is a 1% difference. I think it is certainly possible for someone to be gifted enough to maintain a 1% difference without PED's. I am not saying it was done, but possible.
Has anyone found a study on PED's and the elite riders? I wonder how much difference they make? I suspect it would be less than someone who is untrained.
Richard
1) Using the power calculator, and assuming 500 miles are really fought out between the GC's in the TDF the difference is very small. I plugged in an average slope of 2%, cadence of 90rpm's, and used the same height & weight measurements for all 3 wattages.
300 watts time 25 hours, 22 minutes and 50 seconds.
297 watts time 25 hours, 30 minutes and 36 seconds
295 watts time 25 hours, 38 minutes and 27 seconds
3 measley watts gives identical riders almost and 8 minute differece in time.
That is a 1% difference. I think it is certainly possible for someone to be gifted enough to maintain a 1% difference without PED's. I am not saying it was done, but possible.
Has anyone found a study on PED's and the elite riders? I wonder how much difference they make? I suspect it would be less than someone who is untrained.
Richard
07-05-06, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by khuon
One might argue that on the contrary, this might be the best time to start paying attention to pro cycling.
07-05-06, 05:21 PM
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I can't understand why some people are so upset. So two guys got booted because they got caught. One guy got booted because his team management and teammates were caught. Now we have Tour that is now too close to call. I don't feel one bit sorry for Ullrich or Basso, the guy I feel sorry for is Valverde. He's out and that was nothing but bad luck. I kind of feel sorry for Vino but Saiz has had a rep as condoning dope use so he should have known what he was getting into. Besides he could have gone to Disco or Ag2r so it wasn't like he didn't have a choice. Regardless we have what may be the closest Tour in last 10 years playing out and I for one am really enjoying it!
07-05-06, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by reef58
I did some number crunching. This is a crude calculation, but it demonstrates how close all of the contenders are.
1) Using the power calculator, and assuming 500 miles are really fought out between the GC's in the TDF the difference is very small. I plugged in an average slope of 2%, cadence of 90rpm's, and used the same height & weight measurements for all 3 wattages.
300 watts time 25 hours, 22 minutes and 50 seconds.
297 watts time 25 hours, 30 minutes and 36 seconds
295 watts time 25 hours, 38 minutes and 27 seconds
3 measley watts gives identical riders almost and 8 minute differece in time.
That is a 1% difference. I think it is certainly possible for someone to be gifted enough to maintain a 1% difference without PED's. I am not saying it was done, but possible.
Has anyone found a study on PED's and the elite riders? I wonder how much difference they make? I suspect it would be less than someone who is untrained.
Richard
1) Using the power calculator, and assuming 500 miles are really fought out between the GC's in the TDF the difference is very small. I plugged in an average slope of 2%, cadence of 90rpm's, and used the same height & weight measurements for all 3 wattages.
300 watts time 25 hours, 22 minutes and 50 seconds.
297 watts time 25 hours, 30 minutes and 36 seconds
295 watts time 25 hours, 38 minutes and 27 seconds
3 measley watts gives identical riders almost and 8 minute differece in time.
That is a 1% difference. I think it is certainly possible for someone to be gifted enough to maintain a 1% difference without PED's. I am not saying it was done, but possible.
Has anyone found a study on PED's and the elite riders? I wonder how much difference they make? I suspect it would be less than someone who is untrained.
Richard
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07-05-06, 10:24 PM
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I don't know how much difference PED's make to an an elite cyclist. The point I was making is the small difference in power output versus finishing times. It is really very close between the top riders, so I suspect PED's are very tempting.
The only reason I hold out hope for Lance, but not much, is I can't imagine climbing out of your death bed, and asking to be pumped full of possible cancer causing drugs.
Richard
The only reason I hold out hope for Lance, but not much, is I can't imagine climbing out of your death bed, and asking to be pumped full of possible cancer causing drugs.
Richard
07-05-06, 11:16 PM
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Meanwhile, back in the lab...
From the usual source, cyclingnews.com
In a phone conversation on May 14, at 21:46, the two discuss the Giro stage to Maielletta, won by Basso. Fuentes allegedly said in a 'wink wink' tone, "A stranger won, Basso, Ivan Basso." Labarta responded, "A certain Ivan Basso."
After that stage, Basso and José Enrique Gutierrez Cataluna (a Dr Fuentes client) were lying first and second on the general classification. Labarta: "Well done boy, first and second with a certain Basso and a certain Guti." Fuentes: "Good heavens." Labarta: "Hey...first and second."
On the previous day (May 13), Labarta called Fuentes at 20:02 and spoke about the great performance of the "Buffalo" - Gutierrez' oft-used nickname - who finished fourth in stage 7 on that day. A surprised Fuentes said, "Buffalo?", to which Labarta responded in the affirmative, also listing the stage placings behind Rik Verbrugghe: "Savoldelli [2nd - ed.], yes, and behind at 16 seconds, Birillo arrived with Simoni, at 20 seconds Zapatero [who was identified as Scarponi], at 24 seconds, Uno [La Gazzetta claimed it was Unai Osa, but he finished at 34 seconds - ed]. All very well. I want to say that all those who you are looking after, or who you are interested in, are in the race and also doing well."
In addition to Basso and Simoni, only Rebellin and Gonchar finished at 16 seconds on the seventh stage. Both those riders, as well as Simoni and Savoldelli, have been excluded from having any connection with Dr Fuentes. But "Birillo" happens to be the name of Basso's dog. In Fuentes' code key, it is associated with number 2. The 226 bags of blood and plasma that were seized from Dr Fuentes' apartments in Madrid are encoded with similar numbers and nicknames, and presumably a DNA test could verify whether the blood contained in a "number 2" bag is the same as Ivan Basso's.
The fourth link is a document with Dr Fuentes' company letterhead on it that features a list of "contributors and participants in the festival taking place in the month of May." Basso, Marcos Serrano, Michele Scarponi, José Enrique Gutierrez and Jan Ullrich are all on the list. The Civil Guard has interpreted the 'festival' as being the Giro d'Italia, since all those riders took part in it.
After that stage, Basso and José Enrique Gutierrez Cataluna (a Dr Fuentes client) were lying first and second on the general classification. Labarta: "Well done boy, first and second with a certain Basso and a certain Guti." Fuentes: "Good heavens." Labarta: "Hey...first and second."
On the previous day (May 13), Labarta called Fuentes at 20:02 and spoke about the great performance of the "Buffalo" - Gutierrez' oft-used nickname - who finished fourth in stage 7 on that day. A surprised Fuentes said, "Buffalo?", to which Labarta responded in the affirmative, also listing the stage placings behind Rik Verbrugghe: "Savoldelli [2nd - ed.], yes, and behind at 16 seconds, Birillo arrived with Simoni, at 20 seconds Zapatero [who was identified as Scarponi], at 24 seconds, Uno [La Gazzetta claimed it was Unai Osa, but he finished at 34 seconds - ed]. All very well. I want to say that all those who you are looking after, or who you are interested in, are in the race and also doing well."
In addition to Basso and Simoni, only Rebellin and Gonchar finished at 16 seconds on the seventh stage. Both those riders, as well as Simoni and Savoldelli, have been excluded from having any connection with Dr Fuentes. But "Birillo" happens to be the name of Basso's dog. In Fuentes' code key, it is associated with number 2. The 226 bags of blood and plasma that were seized from Dr Fuentes' apartments in Madrid are encoded with similar numbers and nicknames, and presumably a DNA test could verify whether the blood contained in a "number 2" bag is the same as Ivan Basso's.
The fourth link is a document with Dr Fuentes' company letterhead on it that features a list of "contributors and participants in the festival taking place in the month of May." Basso, Marcos Serrano, Michele Scarponi, José Enrique Gutierrez and Jan Ullrich are all on the list. The Civil Guard has interpreted the 'festival' as being the Giro d'Italia, since all those riders took part in it.
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07-06-06, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
the guy I feel sorry for is Valverde. He's out and that was nothing but bad luck. I kind of feel sorry for Vino...
(Disclaimer: Since the notebooks were coded, some identities are still open to doubt.)
07-06-06, 02:26 PM
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Fuentes said today that more of his clients are still in the tour. Let's assume that he had 18 riders in the Tour (9 that got excluded and 9 more that are still in) that's 10% of the peloton that are riding doped by this one doctor. There certainly more DS's like Saiz and doctors like Fuentes out there.
07-06-06, 02:29 PM
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Can't we just forget about the PEDs for a while and enjoy the large portions of the sport that are not affected? Drugs aren't going to improve teamwork and they wont help strategy, tactics or style either.
07-06-06, 03:52 PM
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Name names, dammit. Clean the tour up as much as possible. How can Fuentes fall back on his oath and maintain the anonymity of his clients when it's illegal practice to begin with? Oh and I for one am not having a problem with this year's tour missing out on the big names, I just want to get to the hills and enjoy watching the peleton explode.
07-06-06, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by robow
Name names, dammit. Clean the tour up as much as possible. How can Fuentes fall back on his oath and maintain the anonymity of his clients when it's illegal practice to begin with? Oh and I for one am not having a problem with this year's tour missing out on the big names, I just want to get to the hills and enjoy watching the peloton explode.
Now, especially since Valverde is gone, the top five are going to very very close.