Blaireau

Reality is closing in on Armstrong and the american public:

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/12/sp...ge&oref=slogin

Trevor98

Haven't we had this discussion? I am not sure the admission of two people in their individual guilt coupled with vague notions of group doping (guilt by association) is going to change anyone's mind here.

Blaireau

If this doesn't change your mind on top of everything else, then I am afraid it is time for you to check in Trevor --or perhaps you should take off those blinders once and for all

Trevor98

The revelations convince me that those two individuals doped. I am not going to assert that I can extrapolate anything from their personal decisions to dope (however stupid). The two dopers did not accuse anyone else of doping but are being used to accuse Armstrong by association. I question the motivation of both of these riders, they claim that they are trying to "help" but only further embellish the image of cycling as a sport of dopers and thus unworthy of attention.

It is however ironic that the very vocal accusation this summer against Armstrong came from one of these two doper's wife (Andreu).

I am very much aware that doping exists in cycling (and all other sports) but I am not willing to extrapolate guilt from hearsay and rumors mingled with some facts. I am not blinded to the reality of doping but readily acknowledge that my knowledge is so limited that it would be folly to hazard a guess as to: "How many Pro Cyclist do you think are Doping?"

Blaireau

Forget reality, perhaps you are just blinded to words
No one ever asked you to "hazard a guess as to." The question is/was: how many Pro Cyclists do you THINK are doping? Not guess, but think. Empasis on "think." But I think we went through this already...
Stubborn bugger aren't you

Trevor98

At best, whatever I think about the totality of doping in cycling will only be a guess based on limited knowledge and generalizations.

Alrocket

Blaireau: give up. Comprehension and logic are not his strong point.

Blaireau

Couldn't agree more with y'a!!
Yeah, I guess its senseless to try and fight against superb minds trained (or is that maimed?;-)) by the U.S. educational system, lol.

Trevor98

Way to win an argument- good job?

davefarb

Should have kept a secretly stashed bag of clean pee for just such a contingency!

Blaireau

Yes just like the gismo danny gave Withnail and Marwood on their trip to Monty's country side house!

Blaireau

Frankly, right now the issue of punishment is not crucial. Its a drastic change of mentality in the cycling world that we need. Right now a positive test is a go-ahead signal for positive players to try and discredit the testers in the media (Flandis) or to vent their wacko theories on the web (Hamilton); its a signal for commentators to try and do the same (Bob ROlls BS piece on OLN site is a sad example).
The problem is that almost everyone thinks that by defending the guilty they are defending the sport... And some fans are just in plain denial (my lance coulnd't have done this)...
Only when caught with EPO in their house by cops do the rider admit it, check the Millar story...
Only when all in cycling realize that
(1) that nearly everyone dopes (most know that -- save a few deluded 'fans') and
(2) that doping is detrimental to the sport in the long term,
will the sport truly clean itself up and have a future.
Penalties? I say give a general ammnesty to those who come clean now. A lifetime ban today has little meaning since most dopers still don't get caught....

No Cheers for dopers and their apologists

Blaireau

Last week of voting! GOTV!
It is good to know that the days when the notion that "most cyclists are not doping" was swallowed hook line and sinker... seem to be gone... at least on this forum.

Or maybe it just comes to show that the good folks at OLN, Bob Roll, and ESPN's cycling "expert" didn't vote.

Cheers

tarpacker

If we expect to reduce the doping problem we must quit defending labs that do sloppy work. They can't even get the control numbers right, but expect us to believe they can tell the ratio of carbon 12 to carbon 13 without making a mistake.

monk

Trevor . . . you're killing me! Your responses are funny as heck. Keep it up . . .

Blaireau

You are right; lets all attack labs! After all the fact it takes a police investigation to uncover many massive doping scandals such as the 1998 Festina scandal (remember that?)... means that the labs are unreliable. NOT that they are under funded! Not that most procyclist use masking agents to fly by tests (remember Pedro Delgado ?). Not that some wealthier cyclist can have some synthetic dope made for them exclusively and therefore undetectable (A la Balco)... No, if we want to solve the doping problem lets attack the labs...
Real Smart logic dudes... Perhaps you don't know your cycling history; perhaps you see the issue in terms of an Anti-US rider conspiracy; perhaps you are really in favor of doping...
Whatever it is, its a pretty despicable attitute when you think of the damage that's being done to the sport you all purport to adore...

Trevor98

Both the doping and the sloppy anti-doping effort hurt cycling as well as all sports. The excuse that some dopers get away with cheating does not excuse the lab from having to follow their own rules. This particular lab has weakened the anti-doping efforts of others.

Doping is a reality in sports- those of us who oppose doping (for whatever reasons) have a responsibility to abstain from accepting bad means to justify that noble end. Blaireau, you sound like you want Landis busted regardless of the means used to accomplish that. That to me is sad.

SunFlower

my uncle has coached both college and professional football for over 25 years. i tend to think i have an inside track on steroid usage among college and pro football players. the topic comes up often. how many college and pro football players use or have used steroids ? MOST. how many get caught ? almost none. i found it very interesting that Ulrich tested positive beore the last tour de france. why would someone use a banned substance when they know they will be tested and be so heavily scrutinized ? simple. facts show that a criminal gets caught about 1 out of every 100 times they commit a crime. Ulrich and all other athletes know that they can use banned substances for a long time before ever getting caught. therefore, they are willing to try. same in every sport.

Randomus

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the majority of cyclists are using some type of banned substance.

Blaireau

Neither would I

MATRIX

To a degree they all are. But, you can get test boosters at a health food store. As well as alot of other things that ARE not allowed in a race. That said, if they are only on it to train...who knows if it is helping.

So, from creatine to test. Almost anywhere can be bought, so I'd say a huge number if not all use something that is banned(atleast in a race).