timmhaan

i agree. perception is important, and if people don't actually believe the lab is all that it could be, then there will always be doubt as to the test results. this, i think, is a real problem. 'b' sample should be done elsewhere.

Karlotta

I wouldn't want to be the person who has to do the B-sample analysis, with the athlete and/or legal representative there with the yellow legal pad, noting everything I do. I wonder if they allow it to be videotaped. I could see myself dropping the specimen on the floor... oops.

OH306

Hey, can you spell France?

sweetjt

According to this pre-tour interview, testosterone is widely used to help short-term recovery. I really can see Landi doing it after stage 16. He had nothing to lose and he needed to recover quickly. They don't test for everything every time and this doctor seems to think you can usually get away with it:

German doctor Kurt Moosburger, who has looked after Jörg Jaksche (among others) for the past two years, has told dpa that he believes that performance enhancing drugs are "indispensable" for high level cycling

In a frank interview, Moosburger pointed to the average speeds of modern professional races, especially hard tours. "The average in last year's Tour was 41 kilometres per hour - that is incredible. You can do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles are exhausted. You need - depending on your training conditions - up to three days in order to regenerate."

To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used. "Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery."

Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster."

Albany-12303

Moose burger

hehehehehe

sweetjt

All you american's are such hypocrites. Where was everyone who is so concerned with due process now when all the riders were not allowed to race based upon pure tabloid speculation. And now 18 have been cleared and counting.

Landis and Armstrong couldn't have cheated because they are red-blooded american boys, but how did Armstrong beat Ullrich and Basso if they were such cheaters? And how come Landis was so vocal in his support of the doping controls until he got caught?

I hope Pereiro gets his trophy soon.

DogBoy

I had several conversations with people about how I thought the ethics code was stupid and that they should race and disqualify if found guilty. I still hold out hope that Basso and Ulrich are innocent. I also think the problem with "due process" here is that the protocol for this (quiet until B sample results) is being violated, hence the very procedure by which the UCI set up is not being followed by the UCI.

yellowjeep

Off-topic.
Do you have a link to a list of who all has been cleared?

desmo13

your sexy when when you insult using sterotypes and baseless accusations.

sweetjt

All the riders from Astana and Communidad Valenciana. Vinokourov was not allowed to race because of his now-cleared Astana teammates. It would have been a completely different race with Vino involved. The "evidence" so far against Basso is pathetic, and the only evidence against Ullrich is evidence against his coach who coached others as welll. But everyone is hang-wringing about the results of the tests that Landis never objected to until he failed them. Landis wouldn't have even made the podium if all the riders had competed.

Zouf

Assuming he's doping - I said ASSUMING -

They compensate for the bad stuff by putting other stuff in the athlete, or by not taking too much bad stuff. For example, you take testo, you also take epitestosterone, so the ratio remains within limits. Or you take "not too much" testo. End result, when everything is done ok, you're within limits, life is good. Explains why so many riders have such high hematocrit levels - high, but below the limit (until it's above, of course).

On the third week of a stage race, after a long and bad day, travelling all over France, everyone is tired, including the docs. Someone - the doc, the athlete, whoever - screws up, forgets the epitesto shot, gives a higher testo dose, forgets the 3rd stuff that masks the 2nd stuff that masks the illegal stuff, forgets the Jack Daniel Compensation Chart, whatever: someone screws up the protocol. Or the protocol is borderline to start with, so that anything can throw it over. And lo and behold, athlete tests positive. Did not the day before, the week before, the month before; will not the day after, the week after, the month after.

Assuming. Of course.

Karlotta

They have only been "cleared" by the prosecutor (because there was no anti-doping law in effect in Spain at the time. It has only recently been passed). The fact remains that they are connected to Fuentes. The prosecutor in Spain is more concerned with the doctors network than the riders.

yellowjeep

I knew about Astana, thanks for the info on the others. I really wish Vino could have raced. Really alot.

1slowbastard

Looks like Forbes found that missing twin Tyler Hamilton was looking for.

https://www.forbes.com/business/busin...ap2919570.html

sweetjt

Nope. These riders aren't implicated in any way. By your logic, all riders should be cleared because they can't be prosecuted in Spain. But each rider has to go through the Spanish courts and ask specifically about their own name because the police won't release any evidence. More will follow.

But I love how everyone is bending over backwards to believe these 58 riders are guilty and at the same time bending into pretzels to believe Landis' positive test can't be right.

Karlotta

I'm not twisted into any pretzel about Landis. It would seem that the positive test speaks for itself. It will either be confirmed in the counter-analysis (most likely) or not.

Thanks for clarifying the Spanish court situation.

sweetjt

I might add that if a rider should be banned for being "connected" to Fuentes, then Armstrong's tour victories should be yanked for being just as "connected" to Ferrari.

webist

If one wants to analyze news coverage of positive news -Landis victory - vs Negative news - allegations of drug use - this story aptly shows the media's preference for the nasty stuff.

simplify

They have bags of Ullrich's blood, from Fuentes' refrigerator, ready for re-packing. That's pretty strong evidence, don't you think? Jan could take a simple DNA test to prove that it's not his blood, but he refuses. It's tragic that some innocent riders have suffered, but they were not ALL innocent.

iluvfreebeer

I hadn't heard that.
Source?

simplify

There were several bags of blood labelled "JAN", they even showed these on news reports. Here is an article which summarizes and references information published in the Netherlands, linked in the text: https://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1153508990.shtml

Ullrich could easily prove that these are not his blood, but refuses to do a DNA test.

iluvfreebeer

Thanks! I think.
This gets more disheartening the more we learn.

If it weren't 106 outside I'd just tune it out and go for another ride.

Prince9931

How many Jans are in the peleton? I mean if i were a cheat i would use Jans, Vino's , Ivan's almost any body elses name but my own. I would use Basso's dog name or Vino's cats sisters name etc..... incredible how peoples lives are getting trucked by some pretty weak claims. You have to figure if cycling is so far in front of the all the other sports in terms of doping, that they would have a way to conceal or track the names a little better than using a sharpie and writing names on the bags..... they people doing this type of stuff aren't exactly stupid. I mean if these masterminds of doping can get around almost all of the test and thier only failing is the labeling of the blood bags, does that make sense to anyone? And how much of Jans sample B's are out there? I am sure they can pull a vial and run a dna test .........

dutret

the lableing of bags is more complex then you think. Look at what happened to hamilton and perez. A mistake like that could kill so not putting too much obfuscation into the codenames is a good idea.

Keith99

Sometimes people like to use rather convolutes logic that for those who know are all but unforgettable. Was Basso's dog female? Is there someone in hte peleton who it seems Basso simply owns?

Why do these matter? Because in many forms of slang being someones b1tch means they own you. Using that as a code name for some rider that Basso owns could seem cute and very unforgettable. In hindsight add that inspectors would look no farther and it is Basso who has the problems and doing somethings like this is brilliant.