Let's talk about Floyd's test results here
08-08-06, 08:03 AM
#551
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I read somewhere the half life of the synthetic testosterone is one hour. That's very fast. Also, the theory is that while testosterone is known to be useful for muscle building in a long term high dosages, it can also be useful in small dosages, even one dose, for recovery.
Also, remember that a cyclist can effectively dope as long as his T/E ratio stay below 4:1. That means, practically speaking, they can all take small doses, or, take larger doses combined with epitestosterone. As long as their T/E stays below 4;1, the more expensive test for syn testosterone isn't done.
I suppose it's possible that Floyd took it just that once to recover from his especially bad day.
But it's also possible that he, along with everyone else, or most everyone else, doped every day (normally in an way that does not cause one to exceed the 4:1 T/E limit), and that particular day something went wrong. Maybe he left the patch on longer than normal, maybe the epitestosterone broke down faster than anticipated. Maybe each patch contains both T and E, and while he normally applies only one patch, in this case he decided to double up, but maybe the ratio synthetic T & E that you need to take is non linear, so doubling didn't work as anticipated? Who knows? Something went wrong...
Also, remember that a cyclist can effectively dope as long as his T/E ratio stay below 4:1. That means, practically speaking, they can all take small doses, or, take larger doses combined with epitestosterone. As long as their T/E stays below 4;1, the more expensive test for syn testosterone isn't done.
I suppose it's possible that Floyd took it just that once to recover from his especially bad day.
But it's also possible that he, along with everyone else, or most everyone else, doped every day (normally in an way that does not cause one to exceed the 4:1 T/E limit), and that particular day something went wrong. Maybe he left the patch on longer than normal, maybe the epitestosterone broke down faster than anticipated. Maybe each patch contains both T and E, and while he normally applies only one patch, in this case he decided to double up, but maybe the ratio synthetic T & E that you need to take is non linear, so doubling didn't work as anticipated? Who knows? Something went wrong...
They should test his other samples, the ones with less than a 4:1 ratio, for syn test
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08-08-06, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by shokhead
Did they say the first test was syn?
08-08-06, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Albany-12303
They should test his other samples, the ones with less than a 4:1 ratio, for syn test
08-08-06, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I read somewhere the half life of the synthetic testosterone is one hour. That's very fast. Also, the theory is that while testosterone is known to be useful for muscle building in a long term high dosages, it can also be useful in small dosages, even one dose, for recovery.
Also, remember that a cyclist can effectively dope as long as his T/E ratio stay below 4:1. That means, practically speaking, they can all take small doses, or, take larger doses combined with epitestosterone. As long as their T/E stays below 4;1, the more expensive test for syn testosterone isn't done.
I suppose it's possible that Floyd took it just that once to recover from his especially bad day.
But it's also possible that he, along with everyone else, or most everyone else, doped every day (normally in an way that does not cause one to exceed the 4:1 T/E limit), and that particular day something went wrong. Maybe he left the patch on longer than normal, maybe the epitestosterone broke down faster than anticipated. Maybe each patch contains both T and E, and while he normally applies only one patch, in this case he decided to double up, but maybe the ratio synthetic T & E that you need to take is non linear, so doubling didn't work as anticipated? Who knows? Something went wrong...
Also, remember that a cyclist can effectively dope as long as his T/E ratio stay below 4:1. That means, practically speaking, they can all take small doses, or, take larger doses combined with epitestosterone. As long as their T/E stays below 4;1, the more expensive test for syn testosterone isn't done.
I suppose it's possible that Floyd took it just that once to recover from his especially bad day.
But it's also possible that he, along with everyone else, or most everyone else, doped every day (normally in an way that does not cause one to exceed the 4:1 T/E limit), and that particular day something went wrong. Maybe he left the patch on longer than normal, maybe the epitestosterone broke down faster than anticipated. Maybe each patch contains both T and E, and while he normally applies only one patch, in this case he decided to double up, but maybe the ratio synthetic T & E that you need to take is non linear, so doubling didn't work as anticipated? Who knows? Something went wrong...
08-08-06, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by EURO
Positive for Cortisone in 1999. Blind tests of urine from 1999 showed EPO.
Don't forget the Actovegin affair back in 2000 either..
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08-08-06, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The lab's protocol is not to test for syn unless the T/E is higher than 4:1. Apparently, his T/E was lower than 4:1 on the other days. So for them to test for syn on those samples, someone has to give the lab a reason to do so. Who would have a reason to do that?
The only person with reason to request the additional testing those other samples (now) is Floyd, as a possible part of his defense. If he can show no synthetic in the previous/following day tests, he might be able to plant some doubt in the minds of those deciding his case...though I was just reading what you were saying about the "half-life"; maybe that idea won't work. And anyway he still has to explain the high ratio on Stage 17.
08-08-06, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
By the "first test" do you mean the A sample? If so, then yes, they said they found syn testosterone in his A sample.
Since this seems, to me at least, to be the single most important piece of information in this whole thing, you would think there would be a clear statement about it. Maybe there is and I just haven't seen it.
08-08-06, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BluesDawg
Can someone provide a link to where this was directly reported? All I have seen so far is references that someone said there was some synthetic testosterone in the sample. What I haven't seen is a direct statement from authorities saying that a specific level of (whatever it is they look for) was found and that indicates that this amount synthetic testosterone was present.
Since this seems, to me at least, to be the single most important piece of information in this whole thing, you would think there would be a clear statement about it. Maybe there is and I just haven't seen it.
Since this seems, to me at least, to be the single most important piece of information in this whole thing, you would think there would be a clear statement about it. Maybe there is and I just haven't seen it.
08-08-06, 03:57 PM
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test results
1. I don't think the test distinguishes between natural and synthetic, only a ratio that would otherwise be normal.
2. A one time dose of testosterone would not help him recover, or perform better.
3. Since Lance had his testicles removed, I assume he was on testosterone patches, but he just had to have his ratios monitored to keep them in normal range.
4. I'm surprised that Landis didn't do another sample on the same day to protect himself from potential system abuse.
5. It is certainly possible to taint the rub down cream with testosterone. I'm surprised no one has used it as a possible explaination. It's at least better than the shot of whisky theory.
Doc
2. A one time dose of testosterone would not help him recover, or perform better.
3. Since Lance had his testicles removed, I assume he was on testosterone patches, but he just had to have his ratios monitored to keep them in normal range.
4. I'm surprised that Landis didn't do another sample on the same day to protect himself from potential system abuse.
5. It is certainly possible to taint the rub down cream with testosterone. I'm surprised no one has used it as a possible explaination. It's at least better than the shot of whisky theory.
Doc
08-08-06, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by doc31
5. It is certainly possible to taint the rub down cream with testosterone. I'm surprised no one has used it as a possible explaination. It's at least better than the shot of whisky theory.
Doc
Doc
08-08-06, 05:47 PM
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So we're left with the possibility that Landis cheated or that the evil "French" have skewed his urine samples to revenge the changing of French Fries to Freedom Fries.
Interesting...
(he cheated)
Interesting...
(he cheated)
08-08-06, 06:12 PM
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Why does everyone assume that labs are infallible?
I worked at a Hospital that had 3 newly admitted ladys in their 80's testing positive for PCP. People were coming up with all kinds for reasons for the positive tests. A new drug abuse trend in Great Grand Ma's, the grandchlildren slipping it to them, family member attempting to kill them, everything but the real reason, a lab error. Seems the slackers working in the lab weren't cleaning the equipment properly.
Wonder how many lives were ruined by false positives.
A coworker had a stage 4 pap smear, after follow up test and a biopsy it turned out to be a lab error.
Another aquaintence that donated blood on a regular basis was told no more donations because she was positive for Hep C, that too turned out to be a lab error.
But to hell with all that lets rush to judgement and discard people.
I worked at a Hospital that had 3 newly admitted ladys in their 80's testing positive for PCP. People were coming up with all kinds for reasons for the positive tests. A new drug abuse trend in Great Grand Ma's, the grandchlildren slipping it to them, family member attempting to kill them, everything but the real reason, a lab error. Seems the slackers working in the lab weren't cleaning the equipment properly.
Wonder how many lives were ruined by false positives.
A coworker had a stage 4 pap smear, after follow up test and a biopsy it turned out to be a lab error.
Another aquaintence that donated blood on a regular basis was told no more donations because she was positive for Hep C, that too turned out to be a lab error.
But to hell with all that lets rush to judgement and discard people.
08-08-06, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by redden
Why does everyone assume that labs are infallible?
I worked at a Hospital that had 3 newly admitted ladys in their 80's testing positive for PCP. People were coming up with all kinds for reasons for the positive tests. A new drug abuse trend in Great Grand Ma's, the grandchlildren slipping it to them, family member attempting to kill them, everything but the real reason, a lab error. Seems the slackers working in the lab weren't cleaning the equipment properly.
Wonder how many lives were ruined by false positives.
A coworker had a stage 4 pap smear, after follow up test and a biopsy it turned out to be a lab error.
Another aquaintence that donated blood on a regular basis was told no more donations because she was positive for Hep C, that too turned out to be a lab error.
But to hell with all that lets rush to judgement and discard people.
I worked at a Hospital that had 3 newly admitted ladys in their 80's testing positive for PCP. People were coming up with all kinds for reasons for the positive tests. A new drug abuse trend in Great Grand Ma's, the grandchlildren slipping it to them, family member attempting to kill them, everything but the real reason, a lab error. Seems the slackers working in the lab weren't cleaning the equipment properly.
Wonder how many lives were ruined by false positives.
A coworker had a stage 4 pap smear, after follow up test and a biopsy it turned out to be a lab error.
Another aquaintence that donated blood on a regular basis was told no more donations because she was positive for Hep C, that too turned out to be a lab error.
But to hell with all that lets rush to judgement and discard people.
Or are you thinking that a janitor slipped and accidentally spilled some steroids on his samples?
08-08-06, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dolomiti
They did two separate tests. What are the odds that a Phonak rider get caught doping the day of their magical ride in the Tour de France...
Or are you thinking that a janitor slipped and accidentally spilled some steroids on his samples?
Or are you thinking that a janitor slipped and accidentally spilled some steroids on his samples?
All I'm saying is that there is reasonable doubt and I don't agree with the lynching of Floyd.
Last edited by redden; 08-08-06 at 09:35 PM.
08-08-06, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by redden
Don't know where that came from. Labs can and do mess up. I don't have a clue about their quality control or ethics, do you?
All I'm saying is that there is reasonable doubt and I don't agree with the lynching of Floyd.
All I'm saying is that there is reasonable doubt and I don't agree with the lynching of Floyd.
08-08-06, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by redden
Don't know where that came from. Labs can and do mess up. I don't have a clue about their quality control or ethics, do you?
All I'm saying is that there is reasonable doubt and I don't agree with the lynching of Floyd.
All I'm saying is that there is reasonable doubt and I don't agree with the lynching of Floyd.
Cochran made mincemeat out of the LAPD's chain of control and handling of any and all evidence in the OJ trial - can you imagine what he'd do to a French lab that's leaked more than once, and been discredited in at least one report for the handling of samples of a seven-time winner??
08-08-06, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Allen H
We have a clue about their ethics - look at the Armstrong stuff as soon as he retired, and the UCI leaking confidential Flandis test results because they knew the lab would if they didn't. Landis needs a Johnnie Cochran - too bad he's dead.
Cochran made mincemeat out of the LAPD's chain of control and handling of any and all evidence in the OJ trial - can you imagine what he'd do to a French lab that's leaked more than once, and been discredited in at least one report for the handling of samples of a seven-time winner??
Cochran made mincemeat out of the LAPD's chain of control and handling of any and all evidence in the OJ trial - can you imagine what he'd do to a French lab that's leaked more than once, and been discredited in at least one report for the handling of samples of a seven-time winner??
Loll that’s right Orenthal James was playing putt putt when Ron & Nic were getting Swiss cheesed up ......... And they don’t play by the same rules we Americans do........ They have a different justice system ....... it works for them....... If you can't play by thier rules then go home, Can you imagine if there was say a betting scandal that went on between players at say the Super Bowl??? How long would that be held under wraps???? Or maybe a druggie Basketball or Baseball or Football player********** We would know about it on Sports center. Kobe Bryant accuser step on down, remember her???? It took the media a whole 2 weeks to get to her. Court order and all..... Incidentally any one ever heard of Barry Bonds and his sworn Grand jury testimony********** That’s our justice system on its best behavior.....Oh wait .........That was good reporting............ What a bunch of Hypocrites.
08-09-06, 07:34 AM
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Forget the labs. How many stories is Floyd going to come up with about how the exwhatever testosterone got into his body? Now he is even saying that HE did not even believe some of the stuff he claimed. Somebody should start a poll with his claims and how many of us think which one is the wildest.
08-09-06, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by doc31
1. I don't think the test distinguishes between natural and synthetic, only a ratio that would otherwise be normal.
2. A one time dose of testosterone would not help him recover, or perform better.
3. Since Lance had his testicles removed, I assume he was on testosterone patches, but he just had to have his ratios monitored to keep them in normal range.
4. I'm surprised that Landis didn't do another sample on the same day to protect himself from potential system abuse.
5. It is certainly possible to taint the rub down cream with testosterone. I'm surprised no one has used it as a possible explaination. It's at least better than the shot of whisky theory.
Doc
2. A one time dose of testosterone would not help him recover, or perform better.
3. Since Lance had his testicles removed, I assume he was on testosterone patches, but he just had to have his ratios monitored to keep them in normal range.
4. I'm surprised that Landis didn't do another sample on the same day to protect himself from potential system abuse.
5. It is certainly possible to taint the rub down cream with testosterone. I'm surprised no one has used it as a possible explaination. It's at least better than the shot of whisky theory.
Doc
2. Thats what i've read.
3. Maybe not during the race.
4. Remember Landis wasnt told,he read in the paper about his tests,it was leaked.
5. True.
08-09-06, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Allen H
Cochran made mincemeat out of the LAPD's chain of control and handling of any and all evidence in the OJ trial - can you imagine what he'd do to a French lab that's leaked more than once, and been discredited in at least one report for the handling of samples of a seven-time winner??