OrionKhan

This is probably the most accurate assessment of the Astana team tactics on this board. It Lance had gotten yellow before AC, there is no way he would have been allowed to attack the team leader wearing yellow. There was only one reason for JB to tell him not to attack. And that was to keep it close for Lance to get a shot at yellow. This nonsense about not wanting to have the yellow to soon is BS. Astana did most of the race control anyways through out the tour.

For all of the talk about AC being stupid and not understanding tactics, he did understand that he had to get the yellow before Lance. And he took matters into his own hands. He should have attacked sooner on arcalis and left no doubt about it. He would have been up 5 minutes on the field going into the TT.

DMF 

As per botto:

INCORRECT

dahoss2002

Amen Brother!

oldbobcat

Exactly.

Well, not exactly. I see Bruyneel as acting a little more benignly, happy to have either in yellow. Only he's pissed at Contador because he doesn't Follow The Plan. I'm with you all the way, though, on the race to be first in yellow and Contador taking it into his own hands. If Contador had followed the plan, Lance would have been his main threat, not Andy. And with team dynamics in the mix, Lance would have been the far more formidable opponent.

Then again, dropping a team leader in a wind split is pretty tacky, maybe even suspicious.

Regardless, Contador's not nearly as dumb as a lot of us think he is. He is winning.

Hezz

This illustrates the problems that Astana has with Contador. They know that physically he is the strongest rider on the team. But he doesn't quite seem to have the maturity, mental discipline, and personality of a team leader. Not only must the team leader be strong on the bike, but they must have a strong sense of tactics and respect for the other riders. After all, the other riders work their butts off to help the main GC guy so some moves can be harmful to other riders.

For instance the other day when Contador attacked without needing to and dropped his own team mate. This only hurt Astana and didn't really help Contador at all. The thing is that Contador is a really good guy but he has these impulsive tendencies and riding style. The way that he naturally rides he would almost be better off on a team that is not so strong. He could still win on his own without that much help from his teammates.

TommyL

What was he supposed to do, drop back across the split and pull back the peloton single handedly? The only thing that would've accomplished was to put Lance 40 seconds back (off the podium?).

Nothing at all questionable about what happened that day, AC just got unlucky.

OrionKhan

The problem with this argument is the idea that Kloden was a serious podium threat. The idea of Astana sweeping the podium was pipe dream. Sure its been a few stages since then, but its obvious that Kloden was not capable of defending a podium spot. Astana should have been more focused on securing a large lead for for AC before they were worrying about podium finishes for the domestiques. And this is going back to the pyrenees. Kloden's riding after that incident demonstrated, more than anything, that he was not a real threat to the podium. If Kloden doesn't tell AC that he's okay and good to go with the attack, and then drop immediately off the back, this is a non-issue. GC podium finishers don't consistently get dropped from the leaders group on the defining climbs.

As its played out, nobody other than AC was strong enough to beat A. Schleck. And Kloden clearly wasn't as strong as Armstrong. Astana has two riders on the podium. Not inspite of AC's tactic deficiencies, but because AC and LA have demonstrated that they two of the top three riders consistently over 20 stages thus far.

erader

just like lance got lucky when he hitched up with columbia and, oh, left a team leader in the wind. lance knew to usurp the team leader he needed to get into yellow first....but on arcalis contador would have none of it.

ed rader

OrionKhan

Yep, AC had to break from the Astana "team" tactics on that one. He should have attacked sooner and taken more time. He would have been reduced to having to pace Lance up all of the climbs if LA had gotten in the yellow at all. A lot of people criticizing AC for being dumb tactically. But that was the smartest move of the whole Tour. Once he corrected that bad break caused by Columbia, he was free to take the yellow.

DMF 

Look, what everyone here seems to forget is that these guys have been riding together for the better part of a year. While we out here had no idea, within Astana they knew exactly who was stronger and where. No way they expected Armstrong (et al.) to match him in the mountains, and maybe not even the TT. This whole "four potential winners" gas is simply smart tactics. Don't let your opponents know what you're really up to.

From that perspective, the yellow Lance might have worn would have been strictly honorary, and they would likely have looked for the first opportunity to give it away.



Lance was ahead of the split. He couldn't see it form, much less do anything about it.



In some measure because he is Following the Plan.


He's not dumb, but I can't vouch for certain posters...

Laggard

What I want to know is if LA and JB get their own private room during the tour.

StalkerZERO

I hoped Lance and Bruyneel screamed at him after that stage where AC attacked at the wrong time dropping his teammate Kloden and isolating himself with the Shlecks. It would have been a disaster if AC found himself in trouble right at the moment where the Schlecks attacked.
The outcome to the tour could have easily been very different.

The kid is extremely strong and is definitely the future dominator of the tour. But he still has A LOT to learn. If he had half a brain he would stick with Bruyneel for the radioshack team so his training can continue.

dahoss2002

Kloden wasnt gonna be able to keep up if it had been Andy or Frank attacking either. Kloden wasted more energy helping Armstrong during other stages than that attack took out of him.

DMF 

Speculation and hindsight.

Inadmissible.

OrionKhan

[QUOTE=DMF;9352945]Look, what everyone here seems to forget is that these guys have been riding together for the better part of a year. While we out here had no idea, within Astana they knew exactly who was stronger and where. No way they expected Armstrong (et al.) to match him in the mountains, and maybe not even the TT. This whole "four potential winners" gas is simply smart tactics. Don't let your opponents know what you're really up to.

From that perspective, the yellow Lance might have worn would have been strictly honorary, and they would likely have looked for the first opportunity to give it away.



If that's the case, why exactly is Lance so pissed at AC? If he really didn't expect to win.

In some measure because he is Following the Plan.

Yes, he followed his plan. But he won mostly because he is flat out the best rider. Dominant climber and tt'er.

DMF 

See, we don't really disagree after all. I knew you'd see the light.

Blah Blah

Not true, he is stuck on a team that was built with long time supporter riders of LA.
It would be hard for anyone to lead those riders other than LA, LA never accepted the role of 2nd best on the team.

diphthong

maybe contador will ride for armstrong in the vuelta to repay lance
for all the hard work he did supporting alberto in july...

monosierra

Haha ... doubt LA is going for a 3rd Grand Tour this year - More likely to see AC riding a mountain bike with LA & LL.

Just kidding!

merlinextraligh

AG2R did a lot of work for the better part of a week to keep their guy in th jersey. Sure Astana still controlled the race, but they had an allie in AG2R that they would not have had if the Astana had the jersey.

substructure

From a sports blogger:

NOT LANCE ARMSTRONG WINS TOUR DE FRANCE


He also wrote this, in his predictions, the day before:
"TOMORROW: Contidor over FIELD. Tough nut, Lance. Maybe next year. "

OrionKhan

Interesting quote from Lance in an AP article here: https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/..._de_france_208

"Contador is that good, so I don't see how I would have been higher than that, even in the other years," said Armstrong, who won the Tour seven consecutive times from 1999 to 2005 before retiring. "I think his performance this year would have beaten my performances in '01 and '04 and '05."

Sounds like someone has eaten some humble pie. Reality is finally setting in with Lance. At least he's coming to grips with it.

lotek 

LA has said repeatedly that AC was a stronger rider so where's the reality finally setting in?

I agree that the team 'gestalt' and politics were handled horribly this year, but show me one
time where anyone said lance was the stronger rider and should be the protected rider (as opposed
to team leader).

And I still maintain that the break on stage 3 wasn't subterfuge, I think LA just happened to
be at the front when the break occurred, nothing more.

Marty

CmJc

When LA benefited from the Columbia wind-split he had Popovich with him, and insisted "Poppo" take a turn at pulling to increase the gap to the peloton.

Poppo naturally hesitated because they should have been trying to SLOW the break to get their Team back up, but LA's force of character over-ruled Poppo, and pull he did.

Romans8:28

Did you watch the stage?

I did..... and LA and the two other Astana riders were pulling at the front on multiple occasions after the split had formed. It was totally obvious that LA was driving the gap as far as he could get it. That was the moment it became crystal clear what his motives were (as if it was in doubt).