trustnoone

The only eventually in mainstream news is 'now'. Two twitter posts from a week ago and counting is hardly newsworthy. Since when do Americans actually care what the rest of the world thinks? Unless Radioshack is trying to expand into Spain and France I think they couldn't care less.

LA is pretty much his own news network. 1.6 million twitter followers and growning over 100,000 per month. Since he controls the message, why would sponsors be concerned?

DMF 

I didn't say that.

But I did ask you two straightforward questions and you ducked both of them.

1) What do you think the team should have done to support AC better?

2) What do you think AC wanted from the team that he didn't get?


Care for another try?

DMF 

I said it's not a put down if the guy really is immature.


You can't disagree, or simply telling the truth about someone segues into hate crime territory. So instead you answered with a noise. "<whoosh>"


Yep, you're a major rhetorician, you are.

iab

You should check out rif.org.

kwrides

I call BS. You and I know damn well that if you call someone an ass hole, even if they ARE an ass hole, they will not say, "thanks for telling me the truth". They will kick your ass because it is a put down.

If you can not admit that is true, then you are not capable of rational thought and there is no point in arguing with you. There is no point in trying to have an intelligent argument with someone who is not capable of admitting that even a god like Lance is not being kind when he calls his teammate immature in public.

And the whoosh was the sound of the paradox statement flying over your head.

redfooj

If a 40 year old repeat champion shoots down past champions and other cycling greats, and sues all critics (even non-public ones), its not immature behavior, right?

But if it is, which proves lance immature, me pointing this out exempts myself from being labeled "hater"?

USAZorro

Come on. You're being disingenuous here. Surely you must have heard Armstrong saying in interviews that the team should ride in support of the strongest rider, and then complain in another interview that having won seven Tours ought to earn him some consideration for leading the team. He was actively lobbying in the media to usurp the role of team leader from Alberto.

Things worked out for Alberto because -

A. he had the sense to take back the time he lost to Lance on stage 3 on Arcalais
B. Nobody could hold a candle to him on Verbier (which kind of forced Bruyneel's hand)
C. He won the ITT
D. Being separated by 2 seconds from Armstrong for most of the 2nd week, the team supporting Armstrong had the same effect as the team supporting him (or vice versa depending on your point of view).

There's no doubt in my mind that Lance would have liked to have gotten the yellow jersey at the TTT, and that he was trying everything he could think of - both on the road and off - to get an 8th win. What seems very clear to me is that, there's no way he could have won this Tour on the road, and trying to win it "off the road", seems downright despicable and dishonorable. Had he done so, it would have been an even less glorious way to win than Pereiro's.

gear

But would saying something like this publicly constitute being supportive of a team mate? I think if your goal is to play head games with someone this would be the right track but should you be playing head games with a team mate?

Romans8:28

Bump...... for the truth

Any objective person who follows cycling can reach these conclusions just by paying attention to what actually transpired.

I would go so far to say, that the "real" race for team Astana was who was goingto be in yellow first. If LA had have been sucessful, AC would have been put in a very, very difficult situation.

DMF 

Have you ever played team sports? About half of it is "head games". Sometimes the best way to motivate a player is to get them well and truly pissed off at other team members. Not saying that was going on here, but who really knows?

Zorro, I don't disagree with your assessment of Lance. He was trying every trick in the book to win, just like he does whenever he competes. Would you have it any other way? I wouldn't. Likewise AC.

But back to the original question. What could Astana have done to better help AC win?

You left off one HUGE factor from your list:

A. He was protected throughout tour.

The only times he was on the front were 1) his 2.5 mountain attacks, 2) the ITTs, and 3) his turns in the TTT. (And n.b. that he was not taking especially long turns like some of the other GC contenders. I thought Lance was pulling longer, but it's hard to be sure.)

This is how a team truly helps a GC contender. As you rightly pointed out, in most cases this kind of support helped both LA and AC so it's hard to see a difference, and that's exactly my point. All these charges about Astana not supporting AC on the road -- there's simply no evidence for that.


Now, if you want to restrict your charges to the world of mind games, the whole thing about a "designated team leader" is bull. If AC's ego is so delicate as to require it, then he's not the rider you think he is. I don't think his ego required it, and if it didn't ... then that type of support wasn't necessary to begin with, was it?

DMF 

The first half of this statement is an interesting twist, and I tend to agree.

However, I do not agree that AC would have been in a difficult position. I'll say it again: These guys have been riding together for months. Everyone on the team knew AC was shoulders above the rest. He was their guy. But you can't announce that to everyone. Do it and you lose your tactical options. Tactically it's best to let everyone else think that Lance (or whomever) had the juice.

Everyone on the team seemed to buy into the ploy except - at times - Alberto. The only "difficulty" was in his own head.

Romans8:28

Since when you you put time (on purpose)on your team leader by pulling in a wind split?

Since when do you have a "team plan" that eliminates the chance for the "team leader" to put seconds, minutes, etc on GC? (AKA ..Arcalais)?

Since when do you make the following public statements leading up to a major race, then retract them on the eve of the first stage?

Before departing Armstrong expressed the wish that Alberto Contador the current team leader at Astana and winner of both the Giro d'Italia [Tour of Italy] and Vuelta a España [Tour of Spain] this season remains in situ with the team.

"I look forward to racing with him," said Armstrong. "Alberto is the best rider on the planet right now. We have to understand that, have to respect that. I'm not sure I can ride that fast right now. I hope it works out."

Lance Armstrong 9/24/09


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...--Cycling.html


**************************************************************************************************** *********
In the event that Contador and Armstrong manage to work in harmony, Bruyneel hasn’t ruled out the possibility of Armstrong being prepared to work for other team members, such as Contador.


"That's a question that Lance answered himself last week in Las Vegas – yes,” Bruyneel added.
"He (Lance) knows that the decisions are made in the team car and he understands the philosophy – the same one we've always had – we work for the strongest rider.
Buryneel on 10/3/08

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...e-astana-18832

**************************************************************************************************** **********************************************************************************************

"He (Contador) has worked very hard, earning the right to represent our team as the leader this July."
Buryneel on 6/25/09

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...r-leader-22177

Romans8:28

I have no doubt that that was what Astana was telling AC behind closed doors (hoping he would "buy it"), fortunately for him he had the common sense to realize he was being conned.

I will go so far to say, that the moment LA would have reached yellow, JB would have had to have a "heart to heart" with AC that would not have been pretty.

Headline reads:

"Contador dismissed form team Astana amid explosive dispute"
JB quoted as saying:

"This was the most difficult decision (sending AC home) I have ever had to make, but for the sake of the team and the integrity of our beloved sport, we could not allow for a mutiny to go undisciplined. As amazing talented as Alberto is, he must now understand that he is not the boss. We will ride as a team from this point forward and hopefully still finish well in Paris"

DMF 

Everything in your last post is mere speculation and assumption.

Besides, if -as most here apparently think - AC won in spite of his teammates holding him back, what makes you think he wouldn't have won even if your paranoid, foolish conspiracies theories actually came true?

Romans8:28

You can't "win" when your team dismisses you (Chicken anyone)

BTW: All the evidence support my theories quite well, how about point out an obvious hole or two?

DMF 

How 'bout some evidence first?

All your quotes above support my observations, but say nothing about your "what if" fantasy.



I mean really. Not even the famous Lance haters here have gone that far, and they've had lots more practice at this than you. Tell you what. If you tell me where you get your reefer, I'll nod and say, "Why yes. Of course you're right. How foolish of me."

cuski

A lot of people seem to be leaving this out of the equation. Since a number of GC riders were in that split out front, if AC was the undisputed leader of the team in JB's eyes, it would have made sense (to me at least), to order anyone out front (LA in this case) to drop back and help AC bridge the gap. But then again... what do I know?

Romans8:28

The evidence has been discussed (at length)

Keith99

A lot? Try to name 3.

What would have made sense was for all the Astana riders both in the break and in the chase to take a free ride.

Having the Astana riders in the break work only makes sense if one cases about Lance putting additional seconds, as in less than 10 on someone.

Wonder just who that might be?

bellweatherman

And this from the guy who says that he watched every single second of the team time trial stage. paused the video multiple times, and calculated that Armstrong pulled longer than Contador by a fraction of a second.

jaxgtr

OK, this has become a thread of personalities, and I don't mean AC v LA. I think 6 pages is enough for a 18 word twitter. Closed.