brent_dube

That is why he said he is the Michael Jordan of cycling.

He is well liked in France. Keep in mind that the media doesn't necessarily represent the public.

He didn't say that.

Laggard

Lance is one of the better riders of his generation.

Devil

You're right, brent dube. I misread it.

kerank

Do the French and Spanish know who Michael Jordan is? I didn't know Basketball was very popular in European contries.

LA may not have the charisma of Jordan, but in his defense.... LA has had much more of a hate/hate relationship with the media. The media is the only way any of us get to know Lance Armstrong and Michael Jordon. You have to consider that LA has had to deal mostly with the European media who have never liked or treated him very well. The French media took every opportunity to accuse and put him down. The American media simply follows the lead, and feels obligated to ask similar questions. Most of his "unfortunate" quotes are from being in a defensive situation with the questioning of the media. I can't imagine keeping my composure in the same situation. Can you imagine an American basketball or football player having to answer some of those questions over and over and over and over.....? It would take a special person not to blow a gasket!

I'm not trying to take anything away from Jordan. It's just something to think about. Jordan is an American that dominated an American sport, and LA is an American (and cocky) that dominates a European sport. Dont' forget, Jordan was cocky too.

Guest

I was in Vietnam, in Danang riding past a rice field where a family was working. I stopped and talked to the family, who spoke like 5 words of english. When I told them I was from Chicago, they said "Michael Jordan... Chicago Bulls". The other word of english they knew was hello.

When Jordan was playing b-ball, there wasn't a place in the world I went to where if I told them I was from Chicago, the people didn't say the same thing- Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls. Basketball is an American sport, but Michael Jordan was one of the most recognized sports figures on the planet during his heyday.

A little off topic, but just thought I'd say something.

Koffee

SteveE

Is this really true? Is there anyone on BikeForums that regularly reads French newspapers, listens to French radio, and watches French TV that can let us know first-hand whether or not the above statement is true?

Thanks.

Guest

Ummmm... we get it from Lance Armstrong- https://www.lancearmstrong.com/99tdfwords.html

How about some other sources: https://www.bike.com/template.asp?dat...ectionnumber=1 at bike.com.

Let's not forget his recent recount of the french media trying to bribe the hotel management to let them into his room while he was out racing. He said they were looking for drugs, and he was afraid of drugs being planted in his room: https://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125824,00.html for fox news.

Etc. etc. It's pretty common knowledge that the french media has been dogging Lance since his first Tour win.

Koffee

dc70

Some of these remarks are truly funny.
What I find interesting is the comments of, yes he should retire...the Tour would be better...blah, blah, blah. I hear the same in F1, with Schumacher. It is old, it is a tired argument. It is what jealous, small minded, and petty people do when they are at a loss for any real, logical, and intelligent statements.

Even if you don't like the man, you would have to be somewhat ignorant
not to realize he is one of the greatest cyclists, and athletes of our time.
He is about to do something that no other cyclists has ever accomplished.
We are witnessing history along with an amazing display of determination, ability, and commitment from a man who was practially dead. When the next generation of cycling fans and participants see old clips and read all the articles about Lance, they will undoubtedly ask the old timers, what was it like to watch
Lance race? What was it like to compete against him? Those future questions
are being answered now, and we are fortunate enough to be here right now, watching such a display and a such a feat. I believe he will get his sixth, and even his seventh, and I hope he continues to dominate. It is not Lances job to
slack, or ease up, it is all the other riders responsibility to rise up to challenge
and become better riders, better teams, and beat Lance if they can.

What I also find interesting is the people who are indifferent, or have disdain
for Lance and what he has already accomplished, and not realizing what
he has done in respect to beating cancer. If it were someone very close to these people who critize maybe they would better understand the personal triumph
and adversities he overcame. It is easy to discount something or someone
when you do not know them on a personal level, god forbid any of these haters
have the disease of cancer or some other potentially fatal disease inflict them
or someone they love dearly. What would they do then? What would they say then? It is so easy to cast stones isn't it. Rubbish, all rubbish this retiring nonsense. Detractors and haters tend to use Pathological thinking, which is intertwined with emotion, and usually devoid of fact. When you strip away pathological thinking down to its core, it has no basis, no reason, and it is
only destructive thinking. Where as logical thinking seeks conclusion by fact,
and the facts of Lance Armstrongs records and accomplishments speak for themselves. Finally, why should Lance or any star be compared to anyone else?
Lance isn't Jordan, Lance is Lance, and he is dominating his sport. It is a simple concept to grasp, individuals who excel at their discipline should be recognized for that and only that.

Oh and regarding the french and spanish...please. No really, please.
The remarks and observations made by these particular individuals are nothing more than seething hate and jealousy for the man, for Americans and for our Country. It is a thinly disguised vail of loathing and malice. Fortunately, not all the people of those countries feel that way.

SteveE

I was thinking about something a bit more recent. 1999 was awhile ago. Only saw one name, Bassons, mentioned. Does he represent the entire French media? No, he was a rider on the Festina team who didn't take any drugs and went on a crusade against drugs. Has Bassons made any accusations directed at Armstrong himself? From what I've gathered, he's skeptical of all the leading riders and has not singled out any one of them.

Again, "french media" without indicating who they are. How come a bunch of US media outlets are mentioned by name but not one french one is singled out by name?


Which was denied by the french reporter: "The France 3 reporter, Hugues Huet, said he went to the hotel to do interviews about Armstrong's teammates and that he chatted to the hotel manager for a few minutes. But he denied that he sought access to the champion's room." Maybe, someone gave Armstrong bad information? I don't know, but there are two sides to every story. It would be interesting to hear the hotel manager's side of the story though, wouldn't it? [/quote]

No worse than what the US media does to Barry Bonds, is it? I question the statement: "It's common knowledge that the french media". Where are you getting your information from? I was hoping to get a response from someone who actually reads, listens to, and watches "french media". Since you've previously admitted that you don't know the language and never visited the country, I don't see you as very authoritative on this subject. Maybe what everyone really means is --- "parts of the french media."

JimCR

Of course they know! they also know who Armstrong is but Jordans popularity far far exceeds Armstrongs. You think Bball isnt popular in Europe? The Dream Team was argubly the biggest story of the 92 Barcelona Olympics. Jordan was the most sought after athlete.

JimCR

As an spectator point of view, its not as entertaining when you know who is going to win after half way of a race. F-1 is trying hard to make it hard for Schumi to win cause they know his dominance hurts the sport. TdF could be argued suffers of the same syndrome. Last year was a great Tour, competitive up until the last ITT. It has nothing do to if Schumi or Lance win every time its just that mid way point the Tour its pretty much decided who is going to win - the spectacle suffers. I like Schumi but as Lance I also rather see other people win, not cause of who he is or represents but as an spectator is more entertaining.

He is the greatest rider of his generation or the post-Indurain era. Cycling fans realise that, like him or not.

A couple of members in my family have cancer (grandparents) but still I have other cyclists I like more and may I even dare to say - i would rather see other cyclists win the tour! I truely respect Armstrong for beating cancer and for dominating the tour. I recognize his achievement but still I like other cyclists more. Its just not fair to say people have to make of Armstrong their favorite cyclist cause he managed to overcome cancer (I know you didnt say that but with some people Ive talked to they always come up with this argument). He is a great and true example, thats for sure and I like him but as said.. i like others better.


Come on.. now its an anti-American thing?? So either you like him or you are anti-american? He isnt liked cause he is too cocky and too good, ok ok and in some cases American (but not in most cases). European countries in some cases dislike other EU countries more than they dislike the USA - example the spanish would rather see Voelker win (French) rather than Armstrong and as a whole the Spanish dislike more the French than the Americans - so please dont say its an anti american thing to explain it all. Hamilton on the other hand is really well liked and he is American - the horror!

Its not some individuals that dont like him.. its a wide spread thing. Im not German, Im Costa Rican and I read daily the Spanish newspapers and listen to the transmissions of the tour in either German or Spanish and he isnt that well liked as you might think - specially in Spain. All of the Spanish people who i know and that follow the Tour would rather see anyone but Armstrong win. In Germany well - since Jan has been 2nd some many times to Armstrong he isnt that much liked either. You wont hear the Armstong bashing on the German media as much as in Spain but again most of the people I know would also rather see anyone else but Armstrong win.

But you know.. in most cases its not an anti-Armstrong thing, let me explain, its more people wanting to see an more competitive Tour, new winners, etc. If he had never won a Tour before I would most probably be rooting for him to win now. I just like to see a close tour and some new winners for a change. Just cause some of us would like to someone else win it doesnt automatically mean we dislike Armstrong or dont recognize his achievement on and off the bike.

dc70

Points well taken, and I am glad you didn't put words in my mouth.
But also I think you mis-judged some of my comments as well.

Listen , i would love to make more money and have a bigger house,
So,why shouldn't my wealthier neighbor sell his house to me, for less money than market value? Or how about my boss give up some of his hard earned salary and give me a portion? Do you see the point here?
You only get what you EARN in this life, One does not get passage
into the promised land simply by asking. Lance has earned everything he has accomplished in cycling. Clear thinking people realize this, and understand
that is up to the others to rise up and improve themselves to the point
of being able to beat Lance straight up. In life there are people who excel at
somethings, and they tend to dominate whatever it is they are focused on.
Whether it is money, fame, knowledge, or any other one minded goal. This
is what seperates these extraordinary individuals, and freedom enables them to do so. Suggesting that "the TdF would be better off without Lance " lacks real substance. What? If a sport becomes dominated by someone then it should be sanitized? What you and many others are suggesting almost flirts on the edge of socialized competition! Which is to say at the least, is absurd.
To the people who think this way, it is just too bad for them right now.
It is what it is, and it shall be, until another challenger can defeat Armstrong
head to head. Until that day...life carries on.

DanFromDetroit

I have no idea if Lance Armstrong will retire if he wins 6 TDFs. I would like to see him compete in something other than the TDF though. 2008 Olympics, an Iron Man in Kona, or maybe he could put together a few teams for an around the world adventure race for the benefit of his cancer foundation.

Should he retire ? Only he can figure that. Perhaps he has larger ambitions that the TDF.

Dan

JimCR

My friend, I never said he doesnt deserve to win, its obvious he is head and shoulders above the competition. I have nothing against him, I wouldnt like him failing to win cause he falls down and breaks a leg.

In fact as an spectator point of view it wouldnt be bad if he wins by a close margin, like last year. As an spectator I want a closely fought tour, something which were arent having nowadays. Its not an anti-Armstrong feeling or that im against people getting what they deserves. I just want an competitive tour. I wouldnt even like one of my favorite cyclist winning the Tour by a huge margin.

brent_dube

In regards to making rules to help benefit a 'closer' race, like in the Tour or in F1...
It goes down to sport vs entertainment.
When the FIA starts making rules just because Ferrari does well, they are trying to promote 'entertainment' over sport.
I feel that if a competitor 'dominates', it can be a great thing to watch. I'm more inclined to want the rivals to do better than want the organizations to change the rules to make the lesser competitors more likely to win.
I value sport over 'entertainment' (as I find purer sport to be more entertaining). This is why I've been disapointed in F1 and NASCAR lately.

Laggard

Brent makes a good point. Sport verses entertainment.

I want FIA to keep their hands off F1 as much as possible. It's the free market approach to racing. The strong stay at the top and the weak get pushed to the bottom. It's the same with the TDF.

Another part of me would like to think that someone other than Schuey may win. As it is this season it's pretty much a given that he will win on Sunday. Though it's an amazing techinal and driving feat, if you want to see passing and real competition you need to look at the lower places. When was the last pass for first place in F1?

Lance has all but wrapped up this TDF. For drama we now need to look at second, third fourth, etc. places.

Guest

Of course, you'll always have a comeback, so why bother to post more examples? Lance comments about the french media sometimes when he talks- very diplomatic, but his insinuations are definitely there for people to read behind the lines- the media does criticize him. I also can't see how you can be surprised that the french media would DENY they tried to break into his room. Sheesh, what, are they brain dead? Do you really think they would admit to that kind of behavior? Of course they would deny it! It would be silly to think they would admit to something of that. Even Phil and Paul talked about the french media and the people today when commentating on the race (Stage 15)... What, that's not good enough for you? And we are not talking about Barry Bonds... why the heck are you bringing him up? What does that have to do with the french?

You asked for examples, I gave examples, and now, it's not good enough... there is always an excuse. Why don't you get on google yourself and look up the french media and Lance Armstrong? If nothing comes up in the search engines, then you can vindicate yourself and post it. Otherwise, give it up. There is obvious a bias against Lance with the french media. They don't like him, and I don't see it letting up. That's not to say every media outlet in France is after him- that would be ridiculous. But there definitely are a few media outlets who throw the insinuations about Lance allegedly doping without providing any proof, and to deny that it is not happening is being obtuse, and you're definitely living with tunnel vision, dude.

I respect Lance for his incredible cycling ability- I don't idolize or hero worship because he has flaws too- and for those flaws, I don't really care too much for him, nor would I go out of my way to meet him. But I can make some casual observances, and this is definitely something that anyone could see.

Koffee

brent_dube

That is where they (FIA) go wrong. This is a bit off topic but it can relate to cycling today.
They could change the car rules (which they will do in time) and the tracks. But they are putting the cars in the same situations as 15 years ago... when 15 years ago, mechanical grip and the like ment much more, and passing was possible. People argue that passing just takes skill... but with today's F1... in most cases, you simply cannot pass due to the physics of the cars and the track. Changes to the current situation could benefit the racing, while also benefiting the sporting element of it (more exciting racing while being more 'fair' racing as well). Of course we would much rather see Schumacher battle to either gain or lose the lead on the track rather than in the pits.

Cycling may not need the change, as it is quite simple in comparison to F1 (cars in F1 change quite quicker than cyclists and their bicycles do). Though I would like to see some of the classics be longer and tougher

dc70

Ok, but your response still makes no sense. What you want! That is too funny.
You want a more competitive tour...sure, and I want a billion dollars.

So what are you going to do to make the tour more competitive?
Nothing I suspect, except complain about it.

Come on, lets look at this logically, clear headed. The tour is the way it is because one man
has out trained, out strategized, and out rode his competitiors and you want to what?
Put restrictions on him? Force him to retire? What is it that you really want, what is your motivation
besideds your stated intention of a more competitive tour? What is the sub-plot?

Because you will never convince me that there isn't a sub-conscience thought that you or anyone else has which wants to see Lance out of the Tour for what ever reason. Too much whinning and crying and flailing about regarding Lance to make it as simple as you and many, many others say about a more competitive Tour. But maybe I am wrong here, maybe you really want a more competitive Tour.
I am just very suspect of all the bashing and dis-respect.

gcasillo

Armstrong submits to regular blood tests. Bonds has done no such thing.

RainmanP

Hmm.

I am 100% behind LA and want him to CRUSH most of his competitors by several minutes to silence the bozos who are still saying that he demonstrated weakness and gave hope to his closest opponents last year because he only won by a minute. The fact is he showed his and his team's overwhelming strength by winning at all despite numerous freak incidents. Though actually my dream finish would have been for him to have beaten Tyler by about a minute in a very competitive race but crush everyone else by 6-8 minutes. Don't think for a minute that I am not behind Lance. I will also support him if he rides again next year.

However, I think it would be a great demonstration of noblesse oblige for him to not ride the Tour, as I discussed in my earlier post. He may have no choice. The sponsorship deal with Discovery Channel may have included assurances that he will ride

dc70

This is a very clear, and very logical statement.
I agree about the FIA, hands off, and yes, it is good when someone else wins,
but I am in awe of what Schumacher and Ferrari are doing at the moment. I think
it is the best in a sport showing his abilities and I am enjoying that very much.

jfmckenna

Did anyone read the article in cycling news about the victory of Euskaltel and Mayo?
https://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004...kaltel_victory
Good article

JimCR

Whats is exactly so funny about me posting what I would like in the TDF? Last time i checked this is an open forum and people can post whatever they think- and by the way I also want a billion dollars Im sorry if what i write makes no sense to you, maybe its my english - you see Im not a native english speaker, if you dont understand something I wrote I could try to write it in some other way.

Just for starters.. I would make Armstrong peddle with just one leg, oh yeah, his left leg that is. Seriously now, i would do absolutely nothing, the best man should win, nothing wrong with that.. i have never said Lance shouldnt win. Im just saying i would enjoy the tour being more competitive - and thats an opinion shared by a lot of people. I will continue giving my opinion, or complaining as you say, about things as every other poster in this forum does.

Where are you going with all of this? What motivation, sub-plot? Do you read lots of conspiracy books? I never mentioned restrictions, you are making me sound as if I said the best man shouldnt win or that I would change something for the tour to be more competitive. The tour is fine as it is, the rules are fine (maybe that TTT - but that another story) - whats so difficult for you to understand that many many people would like to see this tour to be more competitive? What I would like is to see other cyclists improve and be on par with Armstrong but at the end of the day the best man should win!

My dear friend dc70, Im not trying to convince you of anything. If you make statements such as this one you make any kind of exchanging of ideas impossible. Im here to discuss and express/read ideas, im in no quest of convincing you of anything. If you just close your head and say people must have sub-conscious reasons to disagree with you then there isnt much space to share ideas.

Hey now, I was careful and respectful enough not to put words on your mouth, so please dont do that to me. I never bashed or disrepected Lance, I wrote he is the best cyclist since Indurain and the best one today. The best man should win, and today he is the best man and he should win - simple as that.

Have you ever thought that maybe you have pre-conceived thoughts about people who are not all out rooting for armstrong? or maybe for people who just want a more competitive tour? I just want a more competitive tour - simple as that!

Smoothie104

I think he should try and break the hour record, I mean thats why he went to see Dr. Ferrari isnt it?..........