gsteinb

Carmichael was never Armstrong's coach...that was marketing BS.

But in this case we were talking about the fact that merlinextralight uses a CTS coach.

calamarichris

I've got a few (mediocre IMO) CTS vids, and while Carmichael & crew throw Armstrong's name & footage around with aplomb, one gets the distinct impression he just got Armstrong's permission.

He walks around with his clipboards and asks the sweaty people on trainers compelling, insightful questions questions, like "How does it make you feel to know that these are the same kind of intervals Lance Armstrong used to prepare for his Tour victories." not "This is how I trained Lance to prepare for his Tour victories."

There's always one hot chick in the room full of sweaty people on trainers, and the cameramen are always furtive & brief with her close-ups, which does lend some interest to these otherwise dullllll vids.

MMACH 5

Right on. Thank you both, for clarifying.

Jed19

It was more than getting Armstrong's permission. LA is, or was a shareholder in CTS. I say is, because I don't know if he has divested his holdings now.

Landis has publicly said Carmichael was nothing but a "beard", as the real coach/dope doctor was Ferrari.

LA was brilliant as a businessman, in that he saw Carmichael and the coaching company as another way to have the dough roll in, as he could not put Ferrari out there as his coach.

It was all a big, fat LIE.

calamarichris

For the record, I bought the CTS DVDs because I remembered Carmichael from the 7-11 days of Coors Classic, Davis Phinney's tantrums, and the Lifestyle-ambiguous little ponytails they all seemed to start sprouting at the same time.
Overall, CTS vids are pretty much Godfather-3-awful. Rating them on a Siskel-Ebert scale makes me wish I were an orangutan, so I could give them FOUR thumbs way way down.

Cat4Lifer

or it's like someone blaming Ronald when they get a overcooked burger from mickey d's

Jed19

Now a class action lawsuit by people who bought LA's books.

https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cali...suit-book.html

Cat4Lifer

so some book buyers will get their 20 or so bucks back while lawyers will make a ton
hard to think of a better use of public courts

gsteinb

lol

merlinextraligh

My point about Carmichael and CTS is that CTS will succeed or fail at this point based on the value of the services they provide.

CTS is much bigger than Carmichael, with a substantial number of coaches.

I continue to work with CTS becuase I like my coach, Dave Macintosh. The only time I've received any "coaching" from Carmichael himself was doing the U.S. Pro Challenge ride, which Carmichael rode with us.

Carmichael's a very entrepenurial guy. He had a relationship with Armstrong going back to coaching the National Team, and he used that relationship to build a very successful business, with Armstrong's help as an investor. He's built CTS into a business that transends Armstrong ( I believe Armstrong no longer has an equity interest in CTS) and now stands on its own merits.

Obviously, the "Lance's coach bit" was marketing hype. You can debate the moral implications of the relationship with Armstrong, and the allegations regarding doping on the National team. I'm more concerned about whether I'm getting good coaching at a reasonable price, and it appears that most of their customers feel the same in that CTS appears to continue to be doing well and growing.

roadwarrior

I rode with guys that were faced with that dilemma....go to work in a factory or use something to be competitve enough to ride for a living.

Btw...I would have given a limb to be Mr. Almost. I sort of look at that the same way as the guy on Monday morning talking about how the pro quarterback choked. With all due respect...

roadwarrior

The great thing about being a lawyer is you get to stir the pot to create your own work.

merlinextraligh

Consumer class action suits like this really are about generating legal fees for plaintiffs' lawyers.

Of course on the defense side of things, we have a saying: "God bless the man who sues my client."

Bacciagalupe

For better and for worse, branding is a big part of the success of a venture like that.

While CTS is more than just one man, it's still the case that its success relies heavily on "Chris Carmichael, aka Lance Armstrong's trainer." As we can see, by CTS peaking in 2005, and now training half the number of athletes it did then.

If that changes to "Chris Carmichael, aka Lance's beard" -- or "Chris Carmichael, the trainer too clueless to know his biggest client was doped to the gills" -- then CTS will face a serious problem in an already-difficult business. The quality of the trainers, or the program, or how well it's run, may not matter.

Commodus

I don't think too many are hating on riders who felt they had to use just to do their job. I could be wrong, but I feel like most can understand that. These guys aren't trying to be role models, or even sportsmen, really. They're riding for a living, in some cases they're just trying to pay the rent.

Commodus

hy·per·bo·le

[hahy-pur-buh-lee] Show IPA
noun Rhetoric . 1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.

2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

Do high schools not teach rhetoric anymore? It pains me to have to spell it out like this.

gsteinb

I'm an old guy with a fairly masterful working knowledge of hyperbole, sarcasm, and other things generally originating within the NY metropolitan area. Your Canadian inability to adequately make use of such techniques shouldn't be deemed to be the fault of a NY Jew.

Jed19

Along the line of what you wrote, I am gonna make a prediction (lol), that there is gonna be a name change for CTS soon.And also departures of some of his coaches that still have any shred of integrity left.

merlinextraligh

I doubt it. As Bacciagalupe stated, it is about branding, and Carmichael has spent a ton of money and effort in developing the CTS brand. That brand is intricately tied to Carmichael. It's much less tied to Armstrong than it ever has been.

As for athlete and coaches defections, I don't see that happening, certainly in mass. None of this Armstrong story was any revelation to the Coaches at CTS, or to most of the athletes that pay to have professional coaching. It reminds of me of Casa Blanca: "I'm shocked to find there's gambling in this establsihment."

And as for CTS contracting in recent years, I haven't seen that. They built a new headquarters. Added 3 training centers across the country, doubled their number of training camps, and added their bucket list trips. They also became a sponsor of the U.S. Pro Challenge.

I was with CTS in August at the U.S. Pro Challenge when this story started to break. Nobody on the trip seemed to be worked up about Carmichael's role. And a good number of those people are ponying up $16,000 this spring to go to Belgium with Carmichael.

Jed19

Yeah, it is about branding. And that brand is now "tainted". The brand was born in a LIE, ie come train with LA's coach, and a key investor has now been proven to be a liar/goon. Also, why was Carmichael parading himself as LA's coach, when he most likely knew that was not the case. And in all the stuff now coming to light, the guy is nowhere to be found comment-wise.

And, please do not ever forget that Mr. Carmichael settled lawsuits claiming he doped young cyclists as a coach for USA cycling. So, this guy had integrity problems/issues from way back. That is not to say he is not a good coach, and that you and others are not getting your money's worth from being his athletes, but the man is very very suspect in my eyes.

Andy Bohlman, a guy who used to be in charge of drug testing for the US Cycling Fed. from 1984-1991 has publicly said that while he can't say categorically that Carmichael doped athletes, it is well-known that he has been well-known to be involved with cyclists who later got caught doping.

And those lawsuits he settled, the young cyclists involved claimed Carmichael PERSONALLY INJECTED them with dope himself.

My take? a decent/good coach who is ethically-challenged.

merlinextraligh

^ I think you're proving my point that this isn't going to have a big effect on his target audience. The allegations in the lawsuit go back to 2000. The case was resolved in 2006.

If doping allegations were going to bring Carmichael down, it seems like it would have happened then.

I'm sure the Armstrong issues will cost him some business. My bet is it's not going to be a critical amount.

calamarichris

God bless Bradley Wiggins at least. Sure hope he's clean.

Jed19

At this point, I can't/won't vouch for any guy who rides a bicycle for a living. Well, except bike messengers.

TomM

They probably don't care about the $20. "Its not about the money."

Jed19

Very interesting!

https://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...29.html?hp=r23