GV27

Hi all,

We live on the side of a mountain and my 6-year-old likes to go mountain biking with me. He has a bike with 16" wheels now and while I wouldn't say he's too big for it, he's heading that way and probably has room to get into a 20". He's got a birthday coming up and I'm thinking of a new bike for him.

When I was a kid my Dad bought me a little 20" Raleigh 3-speed. Internal gears. It was simple as can be for me to operate and as we lived in a mountain community, I used to kick the crap out of every other kid in town because of my gears.

Alas, I can't seem to find such a thing for my boy. Why, oh why did I part with that little bike? Can anybody point me to a 20" three speed? Or maybe an economical pre-built wheel? Harris I'm sure could build one but I'm not sure it's economical. I could probably build one but I've never built a wheel that small and his 16" wheels are very difficult to get really true.

Thanks,

Chris

masiman

You may be better off with a derailleur bike. I know, not what you asked but it is the best I can think of. Any reason other than maintenance simplification that you would not want a der. bike?

GV27

I don't think he's ready for it. I want him to be fairly self-sufficient and a dérailleur ends up being a pretty fiddly piece of kit. They get out of adjustment easily, throw chains occasionally, get jammed up regularly and are pretty delicate for the way a kid should treat a bike. Plus he just wouldn't know what to do with 7+ gears. An internal-gear 3-speed is virtually indestructible, maintenance free, chain throws are extremely rare as long as it's kept reasonable tight and is super simple to operate. At his age I certainly wasn't ready for one and I've always possessed a fair degree of mechanical aptitude for my age - I suppose that's why I ended up as an engineer!

Don't get me wrong - I'm not one of these internal-gear evangelist type. I can't really see the advantage for me at my age and experience level and am firmly dedicated to dérailleurs myself. I just don't think it's the right thing for a little kid.

C

masiman

Agreed for the most part.

The only other part to consider is when you think he might be ready for a der. When mine turned 7 we bought a der. 6 or 7 (I can't remember) 20" bike. Just now at almost 9 able to fix a chain problem. As far as I can tell, all the kid 20" geared bikes are at most 7 speed. I don't recall any 8 speeds, but someone will prove me wrong . In any case they are simple inexpensive units, that maintain adjustment okay. If they had an internally geared 7 or 8 speed available, that would be nice. Pricey, but nice, lol. You may end up looking for more gears for him in another year or two given your terrain.

I agree with you regarding the gears. It is difficult for them to learn. Mine is just about getting the idea of changing gears based on grade and difficulty. I'm glad we introduced gears when we did. It saved us another bike purchase even if the der. intro was sooner than it needed to be.

Fibber

I share your concern, Chris. I am actually in the process of wheel building right now. I picked up the new custom cut spokes on Wednesday evening!

My youngest is 5 1/2" and on a 16" bike. She is extremely petite (41" tall), and hasn't grown a fraction in months. I suspect she will not graduate to a 20" bike for a few years. I have a cheap 18" bike and a 20" Trek Mt Lion (6 spd) waiting for her to grow into.

I recently added hand brakes to her 16" bike, and she likes them better than the coaster brake. I modified the return spring so that her little hands could produce effective braking. Still, having the coaster brake as a backup is a plus.

We live in a hilly area. She can do 5 miles on flat ground, but the hills that we ride as a family stop her cold. Very frustrating. But like you, I don't feel that she is ready for a derailleur, and putting one on a 16" bike is too complex (short chain stay, dropout spacing, etc.). So the logical answer is an internal drive.

Realize that anything can be done if you have the will, but it may not be easy or cheap unless you have easy access to used parts (and some expertise)!

I went to ebay for a vintage Sturmey Archer S3C (3 speed with coaster brake) with a 28 spoke flange. A bike forum member (Dirtdrop) was kind enough to send me a surplus grip shifter & cable.

The HuffySports site has a wealth of inexpensive bike parts, and I purchased the handbrake kit, new 28 spoke steel wheels (the little bike had 20 spoke wheels which would make lacing the S-A hub difficult), new tubes & decent tires (nice improvement over stock).

I had a source for free spokes, and I laced up the hub to one of the new rims. Unfortunately, the spokes were too long, and cutting and rethreading turned out to be much more difficult than I thought it would be. Finally I gave up, and paid my LBS $28 for 28 custom cut spokes (plain steel 14G) and nipples. Another part of my learning - shop tool does compression threading rather than cutting!

I hope to get the wheel on the bike this weekend. The dropouts need to be spread about 8mm, and the chain may need an extra link or two. Right handgrip will need to be removed and cut so the shifter can mount.

When it is all said and done, I'll have well over $100 invested. Will it all work? I'll let you know! If nothing else, I've learned a lot!

Steve

Fibber

Thought I post some pics of the final result. First is my little one (under 5 at the time - last October) on the bike in stock condition, and now fitted with all the new hardware. Unfortunately, the hub has some 'issues', so it may require further work. Still, she has ridden it and likes to shift (when the hub will allow it...).

GV27

Hey thanks Steve! Looks good. Right now I'm trying to figure out if my little guy is ready for a 20" yet. He's getting close so I'm wating for the 20" before embarking on this project.

Thanks again,

Chris

DieselDan

Fail

Fibber

Yes Chris, the curse of being an engineer! Who else would take on such a crazy project?

Steve

masiman

That is pretty darn awesome. What was the final cost? A labor of love .

Yes, the spoke cutters I know of do compression formed threads (Hozan, Phil Wood).

I hope the hub mechanical issues are fixable.

Fibber

Cost in $$$.... expensive! Labor of love.... priceless!

If the true cost gets out and my wife hears the bill, I'm a dead man! Seriously, around $140 or so give or take. I learned a lot along the way. Call it an educational enrichment project. Maybe training for a new career?

If you include the Park PSC-10 stand that I bought to make this job easier and to service the other bikes, a whole lot more!

masiman

You would have to amortize that repair stand cost to count that in there. It is extremely useful beyond this project!

That is very expensive but I know the time she spends on it will more than make up for the cost. Hopefully it's life will be extended through other kids.

We are currently out of power here do to the storms that came through Virginia yesterday. It is nice to sit at home with no phone, TV or other electronics. My oldest's battery on the Nintendo DS should be giving out soon. The kids are out of school, playing cards and riding bikes. Tempting to get rid of all the extraneous stuff. I do miss the hot water though .

Fibber

My sister-in-law lives outside of Fredricksburg and said the storms over the past week have been very intense. Hope your power is restored soon. I'm in the middle of a generator install project, as the outages here have cost us a freezer full of food a few times too often, and I worry about the pipes in the winter.

This is my first repair stand, and now I wonder why I was so stubborn about spending the money! What a joy to be able to work at face level rather than on my knees. I know it will get good use.

SweetLou

Spoke threads can't be cut, the diameter would be too small to fit properly in the nipples. Well, I guess you could find some cheap spokes that have been cut originally...

But I agree, if you want a 3 speed for your son, the best option is to get a hub and lace it to a rim. You can find some cheap older 3 speeds, those older Sturmey Archer hubs last a lifetime. Cut the hub out, lace it up to the 20" wheel, take the shifter off the older bike. Keep the bike, when your son gets too big for the 20" bike, relace the hub back into the old 3 speed for his next bike.

Fibber

Yes, that was part of my learning process. 14G spokes are around 2mm, but the threaded ends are actually slightly larger in diameter. The threads are added not by die cutting (subtraction), but by crush/compression which actually swells the diameter as it imprints the threads. You realize this quickly if you continue to rotate the nipple onto the spoke past the threads. Instead of it binding up as it would on a conventional nut and bolt, it simply slides down the non-threaded surface!

I suppose that one could cut threads if they either started out with larger diameter spokes (12 or 13G, maybe), or purchased smaller nipples (15G). There is probably a combo that would work, but it is safer and easier to do it right and buy them made to order.

GV27

Well, I'm off to comb the thrift stores for a hub. Heck - who knows, maybe I'll find a whole wheel.

I've decided my Son is ready for a 20" bike - he's getting pretty big for his 16". He's getting to be an animal on the trail too - we did an 8 mile ride last night, all but a mile or so on single track. I reckon that's pretty good for a kid on a bike with 16" wheels.

I wonder what ever happened to kids 3-speeds? Killed off by BMX bikes, I suppose. Thinking about it, I actually remember 3-speeds being somewhat common. It was just that all my friends wanted a BMX. With a rock-hard seat set so low as to be useless. I road one once and hated it. Stuck with the 3-speed. Was always glad I did!

Remember those Schwinns with the banana seat and giant "stick-shift" on the top tube? And I was talking to my wife this morning and she said she had a 3-speed when she was a kid. This was mid-'70s. Yesterday I was riding home from work through the "Bario" and saw a kid riding what was obviously a very old handed-down hand-me-down. Guess what? 3-speed! Too bad nobody markets them anymore - like I said I think they're absolutely perfect for a kid.

Chris