This pic is with it up but i flipped it today so the bars are lower.

Got the TARMAC last fall, have about 1600 miles on it.

I couldn't reach the bars comfortably.

Now my hamstring has stretched out considerably more.

My seat height has gone up several times now my hips are higher, im using the drops alot for aerodynamics.

I just hope the next 60 mile ride doesn't create new aches & pains.

How do you know if your saddle is to low, to high or just right? Do you have any idea if your saddle fore and aft is correct? If you could not reach the bars comfortably how is flipping the stem down going to help? One final question..... Have you ever thought about getting your bicycle fitted to you?

More core strength = comfortable with more bar drop.

I was fitted when i bought in last Sept.

Romin Evo saddle is correct.

I can feel a better power stroke in my legs without racking myself.

The Romin saddle is awesome, it goes up in the back and down in the front.

Flat saddles don't work for me.

Everything else is correct.

You're the wizard where it comes to fit but I can tell you that flipping the stem put the bars further and lower relative to the seat tube. I'm surprised you mention having raised the seat because a lot of riders might have lowered it slightly. (Lowering the seat effectively "shortens" the top tube.) Any way, your new position, as described, sounds substantially more aggressive which is appropriate for someone trying to find the right fit. The achielles pain doesn't sound good. Drop the seat 1/2 the distance you raised it and see if it helps.

I lowered the saddle then split the difference after dropping the bars today.

Did a short test in the rain, will know more after a short 30 mile ride.

You changed your fitting?

Whats with the pump on the right side?

I recently flipped my stem too and I had to change to saddle position. In my case I did not change the height, but moved it forward and slightly nose down.
I did not ride it being at my new position long enough (only around the block) to tell you if it worked.
But I am wondering if anyone flipped the stem and left saddle unchanged.

Stem height and length has no effect on correct saddle position. They should be adjusted COMPLETELY independent of each other. Once saddle height and fore/aft is correct you should never have to change it to enable a lower bar. If you need to tilt your saddle then you need more flexibility OR a higher bar position

While I agree with the notion of one thing at a time. I'm not surprised, as many report, that seat position changes follow shortly thereafter. Saddle tilt is an adjustment many riders make when moving deeper into road riding. As the miles accumulate, as the OP reported, the rider gets progressively more comfortable with a lower position. This lower position rotates the hips forward and can make the saddle nose feel uncomfortable.

That exactly what I thought before I flipped the stem! In theory, if i understand it correctly, the saddle height has to be set by the legs length. And they do not change (I hope). However, I had to raise my saddle several times after being fitted, (before flipping the stem) the same what OP did. but in my case I got uncomfortable after stem flipping. the same as OP who has hamstring pain.
Does it mean that he and I had saddle height wrong and stem flipping helped us to discover it?

I stand by my statement. If you must tilt the nose of the saddle down then your bar height is to low for your flexibility. I also do realize that a lot of riders do this but that does not make it "correct"...... The pelvis is rotating forward because of "lack" of flexibility.

I think I wrote poorly. I meant tilted down to a level position. Not nose down. A lot of riders of upright style bikes start with too much nose up.

You are correct that saddle height is set by MAINLY leg length. We look for a knee bend of 25 to 35 degrees when your pedal is at the very farthest point from your hip. As you see there is 10degrees of "fudge" room there. Keep in mind as your pelvis rotates forward to reach the lower bar height that will effectively change your leg length from a fit standpoint.

Gotchya...... Level is always good

I really don't want to hijack the thread, the OP have different issues than I, but I am very flexible, and still have problems after stem flipping. That is why I was asking about relation between saddle height and stem position.

I think it's fine to slide the saddle forward a few mm to get the proper reach...

Simply put your saddle height should not have to be changed due to saddle position.

I disagree. Why not just get the proper length stem? A few MM of saddle adjustment is not going to have much of a change in reach but will adversely effect proper knee position (assuming the rider liked where the position was previously)

IME, a couple inches of bar drop will cause discomfort for at least the next 100 rides. maybe forever. not that that's necessarily a bad thing...

And if it wasn't obvious we need the new pic. Like......NOW!

FWIW, one possible reason this might work for you now is that you weren't necessarily reaching too far at first, it was just a change from whatever bike you were used to.

Flipping the stem *will* put it further away from you, however, it is very slight and hip angle will certainly affect your ability to produce the kind of power you *were* used to much more than the slight distance further the bars will technically be from your hips.

If you look at a pro peloton, you will see bars all over the place. Some almost dead even with shoulders (waaay too short a top tube and/or too small a frame). Some so stretched out they almost need a chest pad on the top tube. They all make it work.

There's *ideal" in terms of fit and then there are the nearly endless possibilities in between *ideal* and *wtf are you doing?*.

You slide the seat forward because dropping it down on the steerer moves the bars farther away from the rider (easily verified with a tape measure.) Why not change the stem? It costs money and they come in 10mm increments which isn't so useful if you only need a few mm.

I won't even get into the knee position / KOPS thing b/c I think it's mostly black magic perpetuated by the bike fitting systems.

KOPS works at least as a starting point and even then its rare that the most favorable position is much forward or behind of it. Sliding the saddle forward because the bar is now a few mm farther away is just the wrong way to do it and if that few mm difference made you go from the perfect fit to uncomfortable then you are the pickiest rider I have ever met.

BEFORE FLIPPING ....






AFTER FLIPPING [today]

Saddle was adjusted a little more nose down today.