Hill climbing gears... (8-10% plus hills)
#1
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Alright I am about to embark on a quite scary time trial, (i.e. sufferfest) which is different from my normal itt's, it is quite hilly... actually there are three hills on the 4.1 mile itt that are going to be trouble, none of them have much of a run at them, which means not alot of momentum going up the hill. Here are the hills... all within a mile stretch... can you say suffer.
1. A 7 - 8 percent 75 foot approximate hill right after a right hand turn, not much if any time to gain momentum up the hill.
2. After a nice little downhill and a sharp 180 degree corner (hairpin) a 100 or so foot 8 - 9% + hill and finally...
3. Puke Hill, a 200 foot hill starting at 8 percent, quickly going to about 10 percent and at the top a small lip at approx 13 - 14 percent.
All this is followed by an "easy" 3 - 4 percent mile climb to the end.
Now I have two bikes to attempt this with, both weigh the same (give or take .25 of a pound) but the gearing is different...
1. My tt bike, cosmic carbone wheels, 42-54, 11-23 gearing, 10 speed. 19.2 pounds, full aero
2. My road bike, cosmic carbone wheels (same set), 39-53, 11-23 gearing, 10 speed, 18.9 pounds
The time trial is Saturday but I am going to attack the hills tomarrow on the TT bike and see if they are doable... now the question is the following, with the gear selection I have 1. which bike would you take and 2. What do you think a reasonable gearing would be for it to not blow up on? I am thinking possibly a 42-23 or a 39-19 could do the hills but I am looking for someone who rides this kind of stuff all the time. I can not blow up on the last hill either because I have 1 mile of mild climbing after it.
Also how would you approach these types of hills? Sit and mash (more than likely for the short ones) or stand and mash?
Oh ya, the record is 13:52 on the course, 18 MPH avg, I am thinking in the twelves...
1. A 7 - 8 percent 75 foot approximate hill right after a right hand turn, not much if any time to gain momentum up the hill.
2. After a nice little downhill and a sharp 180 degree corner (hairpin) a 100 or so foot 8 - 9% + hill and finally...
3. Puke Hill, a 200 foot hill starting at 8 percent, quickly going to about 10 percent and at the top a small lip at approx 13 - 14 percent.
All this is followed by an "easy" 3 - 4 percent mile climb to the end.
Now I have two bikes to attempt this with, both weigh the same (give or take .25 of a pound) but the gearing is different...
1. My tt bike, cosmic carbone wheels, 42-54, 11-23 gearing, 10 speed. 19.2 pounds, full aero
2. My road bike, cosmic carbone wheels (same set), 39-53, 11-23 gearing, 10 speed, 18.9 pounds
The time trial is Saturday but I am going to attack the hills tomarrow on the TT bike and see if they are doable... now the question is the following, with the gear selection I have 1. which bike would you take and 2. What do you think a reasonable gearing would be for it to not blow up on? I am thinking possibly a 42-23 or a 39-19 could do the hills but I am looking for someone who rides this kind of stuff all the time. I can not blow up on the last hill either because I have 1 mile of mild climbing after it.
Also how would you approach these types of hills? Sit and mash (more than likely for the short ones) or stand and mash?
Oh ya, the record is 13:52 on the course, 18 MPH avg, I am thinking in the twelves...
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we have no idea. Honestly, only YOU know what gear you can push and not blow up in. Ask your coach - do you still have this a or what? If not, I suggest you post less stuff herre and be out riding more, go and see, that's the only way.
#4
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" Going slow over the top costs a lot of time because you don't carry speed"
That relates to sports car racing. The most important corner to get right is the
one leading to the longest straight because you carry whatever speed you gain for a
long time.
That relates to sports car racing. The most important corner to get right is the
one leading to the longest straight because you carry whatever speed you gain for a
long time.
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Originally Posted by climbo
we have no idea. Honestly, only YOU know what gear you can push and not blow up in. Ask your coach - do you still have this a or what? If not, I suggest you post less stuff herre and be out riding more, go and see, that's the only way.
The 11-25 or 12-25 sounds like a viable option, I may look into that...
I am honestly more afraid of actually getting up the hill with such a high gear... of course I was able to climb (almost) a 17 percent short hill in a 39-23 so...
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Last edited by my58vw; 05-18-05 at 08:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by divekrb
Those are pretty short hills, and I'd assume there's some downhill involved. Given that I'd ride the TT bike, and I'd seriously consider a 11/25, and/or chucking on the 39 small ring onto the TT cranks. That would let you spin over the 10% stuff and the lip. (I don't know what your comfortable spin RPM is, so these are ballpark)
I'd probably try to keep as much momentum as you can by standing and mashing until you find yourself dropping gears. Then sit and go to something you can spin at your upper comfort zone. When you are within 10 seconds or so of the top, upshift and get back up off the seat, and power over the top so you have momentum. Going slow over the top costs a lot of time because you don't carry speed.
I'd probably try to keep as much momentum as you can by standing and mashing until you find yourself dropping gears. Then sit and go to something you can spin at your upper comfort zone. When you are within 10 seconds or so of the top, upshift and get back up off the seat, and power over the top so you have momentum. Going slow over the top costs a lot of time because you don't carry speed.
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It is a local rec club itt that draws racers from all over the area, not a USCF event. I am doing the CBR race on Sunday, will be one "painful" weekend...
I will go out tomarrow and run the hills and see where I am at!
I will go out tomarrow and run the hills and see where I am at!
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Yeah it really is your decision. But if you were using my body you'd want the lighter bike with lighter wheels and some clip-on bars. I do time trials on Cosmic Carbones but not on the ride you've described, I'd want my lighter road wheels, 53-39 up front and a 12-25 cassette.
I'm sure you'll be better off with your body.
Al
I'm sure you'll be better off with your body.
Al
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What I need a set of really lite (1400 grams or less) wheels for hilly itts but for the use I would get with them they are not worth it. We will see how it goes with the run tomarrow but it would be nice to have a 12-25 lying around.
The weight of the bike is a non issue, the full aero frame would theoretically be faster, expecially on the downhills but the uphills are where the time is made. -- expecially with a high gear ratio... but a 42-23 is still rather low... 48 gear inches... same as a 39-21... so if I can climb the hill in a 39-21 then I can climb it in a 42-23...
The weight of the bike is a non issue, the full aero frame would theoretically be faster, expecially on the downhills but the uphills are where the time is made. -- expecially with a high gear ratio... but a 42-23 is still rather low... 48 gear inches... same as a 39-21... so if I can climb the hill in a 39-21 then I can climb it in a 42-23...
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#10
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Switch your Bontragers over to your Cervelo to save some weight. Sounds like the 42,23 will get you there.
#11
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Originally Posted by my58vw
What I need a set of really lite (1400 grams or less) wheels for hilly itts but for the use I would get with them they are not worth it. We will see how it goes with the run tomarrow but it would be nice to have a 12-25 lying around.
55/Rad
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Originally Posted by jitteringjr
Switch your Bontragers over to your Cervelo to save some weight. Sounds like the 42,23 will get you there.
American Sprint 350's anyone?
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they say you conserve 10-12% of your energy when you do seated vs. standing climbs. that being said, if you are pretty light, id stand and mash. if you are a bigger dood, then id say conserve your energy and let your quads do the work while being seated and spinning fast. those hills sounds steep but short so id say stand all the way...not sure what to suggest on gearing though. i usually don't pay attention to ratios and listen to my heart (literally) instead. have fun.
tom
tom
#14
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Originally Posted by my58vw
About 20 grams for the aero wheelset (race x lite aero), 40 g for the race lites... hard to justify... now if they were the normal race x lites then I would...
American Sprint 350's anyone?
American Sprint 350's anyone?
Not much help is it? Since it only a 4.1 TT, the Sprints would be my call.
55/Rad
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Taking a 25t to an ITT is like taking a knife to a gun fight. Unfortunately the big fast guys are going to power over those small hills (standing) in the 21t. If you feel comfortable in the 25t then use it. Good luck. Tell us how you go.
CHEERS.
Mark
CHEERS.
Mark
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Originally Posted by my58vw
It is a local rec club itt that draws racers from all over the area, not a USCF event. I am doing the CBR race on Sunday, will be one "painful" weekend...
I will go out tomarrow and run the hills and see where I am at!
I will go out tomarrow and run the hills and see where I am at!
#17
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Originally Posted by my58vw
About 20 grams for the aero wheelset (race x lite aero), 40 g for the race lites... hard to justify... now if they were the normal race x lites then I would...
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Oh ya... right!
I will definitly post a race report on it... I have done many many long and flatter itts, the main reason I got the tt bike, the hilly itts are crazy...
But then all tts are just sufferfests anyways, flat or not, the flat ones you just go faster...
I will definitly post a race report on it... I have done many many long and flatter itts, the main reason I got the tt bike, the hilly itts are crazy...
But then all tts are just sufferfests anyways, flat or not, the flat ones you just go faster...
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I would chose the road bike for the TT, maybe slap some short aero extensions on so you can use them on the final gradual climb. Other than that, I'd stand on every hill and try to recover on the downhill. That's what my 14 year racing history instinct tells me. Good Luck.
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Originally Posted by divekrb
On a short TT like this you don't want any gaps in your performance, so putting yourself into a position where you need to recover doesn't seem to be very good advice, unless you can go from maximal HR to threshold HR in a few seconds. Most people can't and remember too that for most people it takes longer to recover in an aero tuck, which is where you'll be on the downhills. I think the above advice is much more suited to a roadrace than a prolouge.
You're only going to be on the hills for 1, 1.5 and 2.1 minutes each (at most) if you can keep an 10-11 MPH average (given that you'll get a running start at some of the hills you should be able to get close to these numbers). I would think carrying speed on the approaches and downhills is going to make up for any gains you might make with the road bike. You might want to ride the hills on both bikes; to get a feel for climbing on the TT bike. Unless there's a couple of MPH difference or more it's not going to be worth the time loss on the other sections, especially the downhills where I've found the TT bike to be several MPH faster and quicker up to speed.
HR -wise I'd ride it at threshold, bouncing back and forth to superthreshold and figure out how long before the finish you can sustain a sprint.
You're only going to be on the hills for 1, 1.5 and 2.1 minutes each (at most) if you can keep an 10-11 MPH average (given that you'll get a running start at some of the hills you should be able to get close to these numbers). I would think carrying speed on the approaches and downhills is going to make up for any gains you might make with the road bike. You might want to ride the hills on both bikes; to get a feel for climbing on the TT bike. Unless there's a couple of MPH difference or more it's not going to be worth the time loss on the other sections, especially the downhills where I've found the TT bike to be several MPH faster and quicker up to speed.
HR -wise I'd ride it at threshold, bouncing back and forth to superthreshold and figure out how long before the finish you can sustain a sprint.
Overall the course I would consider to be rolling, with some very fast downhill / flat at the beginning. What is going to be hard is the factors that I can not control, expecially the first corner where someone will be stopping traffic. (very high speed road with the downhill). The main issue with the course is like the paris nice (closest reminder) prologe is very technical in the downhills and can most likey not be navigated in the aero bars part way due to two near 180 degree hair pins between hills two and three, but I can make a nice smooth transistion to the bullhorns and use some crit skills to navigate the corners. After the last (and the biggest) climb I am home free and can push the limits up the gradual climb and sprint on the finish.
I went out tonight after work (got home about 30 minutes ago) and did a few climbs on a local hill (lighted) right next to my house (about 5 - 6 percent) with the road and tt bikes (2 each). I find the the 42-23 is right between the 39-23 and the 39-21, and the difference is negigable compared to the other gears. I actually when sitting on the extreme nose of the saddle, biggest angle possible and very aero on the bullhorns (like riding real low on the hoods) I climbed the fastest compared to all bikes. Now the test was a little flawed because the trek had the carbones and the cervelo the race x lite aeros. I think the tt bike will take just about anything that the road bike can at this point.
Tomarrow will tell lots of things.
Well I better get to sleep, need 8 hours to be ready for intervals in the morning (and my 11:30 am tickets to SW, return of the sith
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Use you road bike.. The TT is so short, the aero advantage is very little.. You may need the lower gears that your road bike has..
Please stop overanalyzing every pedal stroke.. If your not blowing chunks by the end you did not go hard enough..
A 200 ft. hill called puke hill is kinda funny.. I was thinking about this the other day when I rode to the top of Mt. Baldy.. Especially the switchbacks that go from 16% to 20% in the corners.. That is a puke hill..
Please stop overanalyzing every pedal stroke.. If your not blowing chunks by the end you did not go hard enough..
A 200 ft. hill called puke hill is kinda funny.. I was thinking about this the other day when I rode to the top of Mt. Baldy.. Especially the switchbacks that go from 16% to 20% in the corners.. That is a puke hill..
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Originally Posted by socalrider
A 200 ft. hill called puke hill is kinda funny.. I was thinking about this the other day when I rode to the top of Mt. Baldy.. Especially the switchbacks that go from 16% to 20% in the corners.. That is a puke hill..
my58vw, it's been shown that in a TT, a slightly greater effort on hills and slightly lesser effort on the flat produced the fastest time.
Since it's a personal preference, I don't have any recommendations for gearing. For me, I'd rather spare my legs than have to push a big gear and cook my legs. I did a TT recently that had 500-600-ft climbs. I geared way down and spun up them at about an 80 cadence, keeping my HR right at theshold. I set a personal best climbing rate during that TT.
Last edited by terrymorse; 05-19-05 at 09:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Any hill can be a puke hill...if you climb it fast enough. The 2-3 minute hills are the worst, since they're short enough that you can really drill them.
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58VW,
Think about what you are saying:
1. A 7 - 8 percent 75 foot hill right after a right hand turn,
2. 100 or so foot 8 - 9% + hill
3. a 200 foot hill at 8 percent to about 10 percent and at the top a small lip at approx 13 - 14 percent.
THAT'S A TOTAL 400 ft. OF HILLS, NOT EVEN AN EIGHTH MILE!! You should be able to roll these fairly well. Go with the bike that is more confortable and don't worry about the gears as these small hills aren't going to make a difference.
Think about what you are saying:
1. A 7 - 8 percent 75 foot hill right after a right hand turn,
2. 100 or so foot 8 - 9% + hill
3. a 200 foot hill at 8 percent to about 10 percent and at the top a small lip at approx 13 - 14 percent.
THAT'S A TOTAL 400 ft. OF HILLS, NOT EVEN AN EIGHTH MILE!! You should be able to roll these fairly well. Go with the bike that is more confortable and don't worry about the gears as these small hills aren't going to make a difference.
#25
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Originally Posted by MaximumPoser
58VW,
Think about what you are saying:
1. A 7 - 8 percent 75 foot hill right after a right hand turn,
2. 100 or so foot 8 - 9% + hill
3. a 200 foot hill at 8 percent to about 10 percent and at the top a small lip at approx 13 - 14 percent.
THAT'S A TOTAL 400 ft. OF HILLS, NOT EVEN AN EIGHTH MILE!! You should be able to roll these fairly well. Go with the bike that is more confortable and don't worry about the gears as these small hills aren't going to make a difference.
Think about what you are saying:
1. A 7 - 8 percent 75 foot hill right after a right hand turn,
2. 100 or so foot 8 - 9% + hill
3. a 200 foot hill at 8 percent to about 10 percent and at the top a small lip at approx 13 - 14 percent.
THAT'S A TOTAL 400 ft. OF HILLS, NOT EVEN AN EIGHTH MILE!! You should be able to roll these fairly well. Go with the bike that is more confortable and don't worry about the gears as these small hills aren't going to make a difference.
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