Brake Compatibility
 

I'm currently using Sram Etaps.

However, i have some wack tektro brakes.

Question 1. Can i use dura ace brakes with etap

Question 2. If so, do you suggest sram brakes or dura ace brakes

I vastly prefer my SRAM Force calipers over anything Shimano has ever made, but that's because I hate squishy brakes...

I'm wondering if you've actually tried everything Shimano has ever made.


Review of Ultegra vs. Force.


"Shimano is a clear winner in the braking department – although it is worth noting that SRAM offer an optional-extra hydraulic braking system upgrade, as opposed to the standard dual pivot brakes we saw. Shimano boasts two symmetrical pivot points attached to a bracket, and the difference in stopping power and smooth application is very noticeable."

^this agrees with my experience, but Sram brakes are very good too. Shimano is the best and the real race is almost always for second place.

I'm not a huge fan of Sram Red brakes. They require a 13mm wrench to adjust if they get bumped, Shimanos can be hand centered.

Which Shimano brakes are squishy? I've had current 5800 and 6800 and there was nothing squishy about them

I go into shops all the time as I am sure most of you do, and I play with what's on the floor.

Dura Ace, Ultegra, 105; flexi calipers, at least in my experience.

BTW, " the difference in stopping power and smooth application is very noticeable" does not mean firm feel, which is what I prefer...

What you call "flexy calipers" I call 'ease of modulation" ;)

I am nowhere near as experienced as you wiht all the different high-end stuff, but I think I know what you mean--brakes on my Dawes (Tiagra and Tektro) are absolutely firm ... it feel like grabbing a hardbound book (if you are young enough to remember what they are.)

Ultegra brakes on my Workswell are mushy---that's a good word for it. I still stop really quickly, and have to be really careful to feather the rear brake or eat through a tire---so I see no performance loss--but they feel like the levers goes a long way and flex when they hit the rim. Even when the rear wheel is locked and skidding it doesn't feel like the brake lever won't keep squeezing.

Exactly!

I remember the first time I saw a bike equipped with Campy NR brakes. They were side-pull, of course, and since this was about 1970 center-pulls were all the rage for "average" bikes and that was all I had any experience with.

When I mentioned the side-pulls the owner simply said, "Try them" and I was sold.

I like firm brakes, I cannot lie...

So the question is....can i use shimano brakes on a sram shifter etaps?

I have eTap on a Emonda with Bontrager dual pivot brakes. I also have haywire elite link cables. Brake feel is very firm.

That's not really a very extensive or conclusive way to test how they perform. Firmness or squishy'ness can be attributed to the quality of the cables and outers. And rubber compound, pad alignment and positioning. Even cable anchor bolt,pad holder bolt tightness and cable routing have an effect on how the brake feels to operate.

Test them again out on the road. At least

Not officially. The cable pull is different. The feel of the modulation and power will be effected.

However. i have tried DA9000 calipers with Red22 levers and felt no huge negative effect. The lever feel felt a little different and some modulation was lost. But they were still perfectly usable. Once you get used to how they feel. The power was very much still there. Modulation was 75% as good.

The DA9000 calipers have alot of adjustment via a small screw on the side of the caliper which changes the brake curve and feel at the lever. They have a good range of adjustment. Because of that i think you will be able to find a workable setting quite easily.

This season team Katusha have been riding Canyon Aeroad's with Sram Etap and Shimano DA9010 direct mount brakes.

http://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdn...-1-600x364.jpg

http://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdn...-3-600x375.jpg

If cable pull is similar enough, it will work. If lever is pulling more cable than the caliper needs, feel will be firm, but stopping power will suffer (slightly, unless cable pull is waaay off). Vice-versa, if lever pulls less cable than the caliper needs, feel will be squishier, but stopping power will increase. Best is to get it spot on.

Also, good clean rims, good brake pads and well set up calipers play a role in stopping power.

Wrote in detail about brake compatibility here:
8) Compatibility - mechanical bicycle brakes - Cycle Gremlin

Brake-pad choice also affects squishiness.

And why would any of that stuff you mention feel any different on the road than in a shop (or anywhere else)?

I'd love to hear how "pad holder bolt tightness" makes a difference.

Do you just make this stuff up as you go..?

From Velonews...


"You can basically do that, with one caveat: The Shimano brakes will not work ideally with the SRAM levers.
Current Shimano calipers are built with higher leverage (longer lever arms) and are paired with a low-leverage lever that pulls more cable. So the SRAM lever, which has higher leverage and less cable pull than the Shimano lever, will not get the pads to the rim as quickly; they will need to be set up with the pads closer to the rim to get the same range of lever movement, and they will make the brake system more powerful than it was designed to be. That said, I used to have a bike set up with Dura-Ace ST7900 (10s) levers and SRAM Force calipers, and, once I got used to it, I had no problems whatsoever with it."

Read more at Technical FAQ: Shimano brakes with Sram eTap | VeloNews.com

Hell, I ride SRAM Force calipers with 9 speed Deore XT shift/brake levers and they work just fine (not squishy, either :D )...

I'm sure they are great and the above snippet is a bit of a CYA, but the OP wanted an answer.


"They will be fine" wasn't impressing him much.

My OCD would flare up like a crazy person if I did this.

me 2x.

My point was the Shimano brakes are not the sole reason for any 'squishyness'. There are other possible causes.

Do you agree that any of the other things listed make a difference ? or are you going full denial ?

It's not difficult to understand. If you understand physics and forces you'll have an inkling what it means. Considering the pads/holders are the part of the brake that touches the wheel first and take the brunt of the forces. And they are smaller in size (and weaker) than the rest of the caliper. It makes sense that the interface between the pad holders and the calipers arms is secure as possible to minimise deflection and maximise braking efficiency.

In simple terms. If the pad holder bolts are loose. The pad holders will move,twist and shift under braking forces contributing to a spongy 'feeling'.

Display bikes in shops may or may not have been fully checked for tightness.

Like i say your ''testing'' methods are practically useless anyhow to gauge how Shimano brakes feel. Static brake feel is not the same as braking in motion as the brake is dealing with alot more forces,weight and momentum.

If you don't believe "pad holder bolt tightness". Loosen your bolts to the bare minimum and go for a ride.:thumb:

Are you insane..?

:lol:

Funny my experience is the exact opposite. My gf had force brakes and they were crap. When I upgraded my bike I took the DA brakes from mine and put them on her bike. Both she and I could tell the Shimano's were vastly superior.

Also I have Rival brakes on another of my bikes and I don't like them. Very squishy.

I really don't like SRAM products, but I have to admit I've never tried etap or their Red group, other than trying them in store. But I guess that qualifies as being an expert on how they would perform on the road when the bike is actually moving!:innocent:

Brake feel doesn't really depend on if you are moving or not; just give them a squeeze.

Interesting that you experience Shimanos as firmer than SRAM...

when you use the same pads(koolstop salmon for everything here in the PNW) there is no determinable difference between them that can't be accounted for in terms of differences in lever feel. The most important thing is to just match cable pull between the calipers and levers. I've mismatched shimano SLR and SLR-EV and you either get too much lever travel or too little. Major issues if you have smaller hands and use the shims or adjustment so you are limited in how much travel you have to work with.

this doesn't tell you anything except that there were differences in setup, pad material, rim width etc between the bikes in addition to the differences in brands of calipers and levers

Why is this so hard to understand?

You squeeze the brake lever.

For whatever reason it feels either spongy or firm.

I prefer firm...

Because it doesn't actually tell you anything. Firm 3mm into squeezing? 10mm? Squishy immediately upon grip or after 10mm? Same pads? same housing? Same cables? Going into a bike shop and squeezing brakes that you didn't set up doesn't tell you anything about caliper stiffness at all.

Yes. I have eTap with ULTEGRA BR6800 (now upgraded to DURA-ACE BR9000 + I'm also using a DURA-ACE cassette 11-28).

Be careful replacing your TEKTRO because it might be the "long reach" model (R580). You might end up needing an offset holder. I made that mistake on my Synapse.