Ben I.

Hi all,

I'm working on getting all the necessary stuff together for a wheelbuild, which a friend will build for me. I've decided on the rims and hubs but going back and forth on the spokes.

It's for my gravel bike so durability is pretty high on the list. Looking at getting either Sapim CX-Ray, or DT Swiss Aerolite or Aero Comp. I know the CX-Ray and Aerolite are very similar but wondering if people have a preference or know the quality, etc of one isn't as good as the other. For the Aero Comps, they're billed as a more durable version of the Aerolite so I'm thinking maybe that would be a plus for a set of wheels that will see a little abuse (gravel roads, rough roads/trails, etc) but they are a little heavier (about 100g for 64 spokes). I know it's not much but I use this bike for long rides so lighter is better but Aero Comps are a fair bit cheaper compared to the others. I'm not real concerned about the price difference but if Aero Comp will be good, then I'll probably go with that. If it matters, using Hope Pro 4 hubs and Belgium Plus disc rims.

So which of those 3 spokes would you guys choose?

Thanks everyone!!

CliffordK

You're not building the wheels yourself?

If you do your own maintenance, then simple double butted spokes will be a lot easier to maintain.

Ben I.

Thanks for the reply Clifford!

I do my own basic maintenance but a wheelbuild is a little over my level and I'd rather have someone do it at least this time around.

One reason I'm looking at bladed spokes is all my other wheels (came with bikes or purchased) have them so I'm familiar with truing them. Can't a double-butted spoke twist/spin as you turn the nipple though? I am going to be using J-bend spokes so maybe that wouldn't be an issue or as big of one?

Also how are double-butted easier to maintain?

noodle soup

the opposite is true.

Doge

I used to use only DTs from 1980 till about 2005.
I would not buy a round spoke anymore - straight gage or DB.
Reason is they twist in the building (so do bladed) and you can't see it unless you mark them - and most builders don't, but bladed you can see - and straighten the twist, and hold them from twisting.
So most important - have a blade of some sorts.

I use only Sapim now - Race for team, cx-Rays for kid and me.
I might go with their Super spoke for a climbing wheel for my kid.

Bike Gremlin

+1
DT Swiss double butted spokes, and make that 36 at each wheel.
With brass nipples.

Bike Gremlin

Twist more, so need more caution when building a wheel. But once built properly, you are free of worries for a long long time.

noodle soup

that can be said about round or bladed spokes.

Bike Gremlin

Double butted ones resist fatigue better, because the thin, middle part takes extra load, instead of the "elbow" - which relieves the already very stressed "elbow", making the whole system more durable in the long run.

So better than straight round spokes.

Bladed spokes are a hassle, not worth unless racing against other competitors, or the clock IMO.

Ben I.

I'm a fairly light rider so doing 28 front, 32 rear with 2 cross. At the suggestion of the person that'll be building them, already planning on using brass nipples but thank you for mentioning it!

If they're round/double butted how do you keep them from twisting while you're adjusting the spoke?

Ben I.

That's my thought process as well, if it's a round spoke, how can you see and fix a twist in the spoke? But I'm also not an experienced wheelbuilder so I'm speaking from the little I do know haha.

Bike Gremlin

Round spokes, even the double butted ones, resist twisting torque better than the bladed ones.
A bit of grease on the spoke threads and where the nipples touch the rim (or a smear of oil), plus a bit of backing off (1/4 of a turn) when finalizing the tightening - will get the job done properly.

As a way to check, when all done, one can lean onto the rim, while placing a hub on a wooden plank. There shouldn't be any popping sounds - those are the spokes unwinding.

Tightening bladed spokes to an appropriate torque without having them twist is a lot harder. Often calls for unloading the rim when doing so.


For the 32 spoked rear, I'd recommend a 3 cross pattern.
I'd recommend the same for the 28 spoked front wheel, but there it's not that critical.


Having said all this, if someone's building the wheels for you, I'd take an experienced wheel builder's advice over 1000 bikeforum posts - let them do the job as they recommend it should be done and don't worry.
I'd even take them for the recommended spokes, rims, hubs - according to your priorities, weight and budget.

Chandne

I'm 175 lbs and my builder usually uses CX Rays on alloy rims (24x28). Same thing with my new wheels but he will use CX Sprints on the rear drive side. His wheels are excellent. He does use double butted spokes too but prefers the bladed Sapim spokes.

Bike Gremlin

Even in this case? As the OP said:

Chandne

He used CX Rays only (24x28) on my gravel bike too but it has NOX disc carbon rims. Since he said those rims were pretty stiff, he didn't go 28x32. It hasn't gone out of true at all, and I run it tubeless (45-70 PSI depending on terrain) and have gone up and down some rough trails where my hands were pretty shot after the descent. With alloy, he would have used 28x32.

Ben I.

First, thank you for all of the advice!

Second, the friend that will be building them for me actually suggested double butted spokes but as I mentioned, I have no experience with truing them. To be fair though, I only recently learned how to do basic wheel truing. In my research the DT Swiss Competition (double butted) spokes actually weigh the same and the Competition Race spokes are even lighter so I may go with one of those instead of a bladed spoke. Would you say it'd be better to go with regular Competition since they're a little thicker and will be more durable than the lighter Race version?

Ben I.

I have no problem with Sapim spokes but at least for me, DT Swiss spokes are easier to find and a bit cheaper as well. From all the advice I'm getting it seems like whether I go with bladed or double butted, I'll be okay, it's mainly a matter of which is easier to adjust when needed.

Doge

You may have heard of, or seen old wheel building talking about stress relieving wheels. While some of this was ferrals setting in, another part was allowing spokes to be un-twisted.

In the day I had a trick for round spoke builds. I would loosely lace each wheel and mark each one same side with a felt pen. Then as I trued the wheel I would make sure each spoke was returned to the original spot. I'd have to clean it up to keep my secret.
15g spoke could twist 360 degrees. I also used leather jawed vice grips to later hold spokes.
All that extra work made oval/blades easier.

Bike Gremlin

Working with regular spokes is easier than with bladed ones.

DT Swiss double butted are the ones I'd use for durability.

If you have a friend willing to give you good advice based on knowing your needs, priorities and budget, as well as build the wheels for you - I'd buy what he recommends, plus a six pack of beer and let him work.

rpenmanparker 

False.

Bike Gremlin

¬

Fixed.

rpenmanparker 

With the slotted tool to grip the bladed spokes, there is never a trace of windup. Never a need to compress the wheel to release the windup, because there isn't any. Preventing and correcting windup in round spokes is much more difficult. Many folks pay the premium for blades spokes just for this reason. No aero considerations at all.

79pmooney

My thoughts: For a gravel bike, DB spokes all around, 28 front, 32 rear is as few spokes as I would ever go. I'd go 3X rear. Front too if feasible. (I've never built a 28 spoke wheel.) DT Revolution (I weight 155 pounds and am not a wheel killer) with Competition right rear. So far I have not gone lighter than 3X Velocity Aero and 4X Open Pro.

I want my wheels very strong because here in Oregon, the gravel often includes steep downhills that are near impossible not to hit the bottom of fast, then wicked washboard that feels as if designed to destroy frames and wheels. (I had my Raleigh Competition stripped and inspected by a framebuilder I trust just so I could know it wouldn't collapse on that washboard.)

Ben

Ben I.

It sounds like with all the varying opinions on bladed vs double butted it partially comes down to personal preference. Although I still can't decide between the Aero Comp and the regular Comp. Are bladed spokes more flexy since the bladed section is always thinner than the thinner section of a double butted spoke? If they are more flexy, how much does it matter with the different forces that will be applied, i.e. braking, accelerating, bumps, steering?

Chandne

I think bladed are easier to spot windup and hold. They absolutely are more expensive. I personally like them because I believe they are stronger, more durable, and thus more reliable. This is my opinion, of course. I pay the premium happily. I am not sure about weight but they are not that heavy when compared to the double butted equivalents. DT makes the bladed Aerolite and maybe one other thicker one. For this new build, I plan on getting a spare of each spoke size (probably rear only) and keeping them handy.