How Breathable is Gore?
 

I had a Goretex ski jacket which would not vent sufficiently and left me cold and wet on the slops. Again about a decade ago I had a Gore Windstopper cycling jacket which would not move sufficient moisture and left me hypothermic. Because they were unable to breathe, garments made with Gore fabrics have always been not only substandard for high output aerobic activity but downright dangerous.

I'm hearing otherwise now. Some on the forums have described it as "like magic" and such.

How much of that is excitement at getting a new product or marketing bull and how much is rooted in reality? I'm not talking about opening the zipper, dorsal vents or pit zips but the actual fabric itself. How breathable are the newer Gore fabrics? Can something be "totally windproof" and wick/breathe at the same time?

I'd like to hear from someone who has used their newest products. I'm very skeptical right now.


-Tim-

Goretex isn't really what I would call breathable, but it's better than wearing a full body condom.

Improper layering for the activity is the issue. Gore performs as designed.

One thing that both my road cycling coach & my XC ski coach taught > 40 years ago was proper minimal layering for the event.
If you are too chilled at the start: Good for the finish.

The only knock-off breathable cycling jacket that I own will be tested again in few days as the Arctic blast hits TX, bib tights, shoe covers, a thin polyester LS top and a breathable jacket w/ lycra panels under the arms. Good to go.

OP: If you were specic vs. being cute/ironic in your "Location" response posts might well be more helpful.
Is it safe to assume that you are not struggling with temps in Tuscon or Maylasia?

-Bandera

I don't think it's so straightforward. I have a Gore windstopper jersey that's about four years old; it doesn't breath well. I have a couple of newer Castelli pieces made from windstopper and those breath much better. Why? Dunno.

I'm not a textile/chemical engineer but as I understand Goretex is a process, there are different applications. But, the raw material performs as spec'ed. I'm sure someone will be along to straighten this out.

The newest I have is Pro Shell which is several years old. Holds up well but can get clammy. I've heard Active Shell is better, but we're talking $500+.

If you're going to try it first hand, buy it at REI, Backcountry.com, LL Bean, or someone else who will give you your money back if it doesn't meet your needs.

Just an FYI, GORE-TEX and WINDSTOPPER are somewhat similar but not one and the same.

GORE-TEX® and WINDSTOPPER®: What?s the difference?

I have a GORE BIKE WEAR WS Singlet and it's pretty good in blocking wind up front. It breaths well because only the front is WS fabric and the back is made out of moisture wicking material. Only thing I didn't like about it is that it does not stretch so it doesn't hug your body.

There are different kinds of Gore Tex:

https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-adv...ot%20plate.jpg

https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-adv...-it-works.html

Gore-Tex isn't breathable. It's just more of a tactile comfort than rubber and cosmetically more attractive. There isn't any fabric made yet that's both rainproof and breathable. There are some practical demonstrations on YouTube that show this, using vapor under pressure.

Shimano claims my storm jacket is breathable. It isn't. Great rain jacket, though, and good for cold and dry riding with multiple wicking layers. The mesh liner helps.

When wearing my Columbia Gore-Tex and Thinsulate parka for winter motorcycling and hiking I'd wear an old fashioned full body merino wool union suit -- good old red longjohns -- under everything else. Very comfy. But I'd need to unzip the front, a little from the bottom at the waistband and from the top at the collar, for ventilation.

I wish my bicycling rain and wind jackets had those two way zippers. They only have rear cape or lower back vents. Two way zippers help control ventilation without resorting to underarm vents.

I'll wear the Columbia parka for freezing and sub-freezing bicycle rides this winter.

Don't do it. Gore-tex doesn't breathe. If you want a cold weather solution for any kind of cycling beyond tooling around on a hybrid at >10mph, get a cycling jacket with wind blocking panels in front and a breathable fabric in the back. Layer underneath as necessary.

Gets my vote as well.

That works fine if it's not raining but you might get cold if it's an extended ride in the rain. Castelli Gabba is a 'breathable' jacket that will keep much of the rain out for an hour or so. After that it will start to soak through. It certainly breathes better than a waterproof jacket.

Keep in mind that Goretex is permeable to water vapor, not liquid water. In the absence of air flow over the skin you are not likely to vaporize much sweat. So the moisture stays inside the jacket.

Thank you all for the replies.

I am aware of the difference between Goretex and Windstopper and should not have mentioned Goretex. It is not relevant to my question. I'm concerned with Windstopper only and should have made that clear.

Not looking for information on how to dress nor am I considering a specific garment at this time.

Just interested in how well Gore's latest generation Windstopper fabric breathes compared to older Windstopper, that's all.



Thank you. This is exactly what I"m after, how well the newer Gore Windstopper fabrics breathe compared to my Windstopper jacket circa 2005.

Sounds like they have made some progress. Can you share with me which Castelli pieces you own?


-Tim-

DISCLAIMER: I am a Gore product tester. I receive consideration for sharing my views.

What is true is that if you're in warmish rain rain, Gore-Tex won't be that helpful. But it's not because it's not breathable. It's because it's hard for sweat to evaporate in 100% relative humidity.

In order to stay dry, you need vapor pressure. In plain English, this means Gore-Tex works best if you're warm and wet inside, but the outside environment is cold and dry. If you go into harsh alpine environments where you're working hard to climb thousands of feet, you can be bone dry while ice forms on the outside of your jacket because the Gore-Tex is doing its job. The vapor pressure thing is a big deal. If you're warm and wet, you can be totally immersed in cold water and still get dry. That is why no serious cold water kayaker doesn't go with a waterproof breathable drysuit.

There is an entire Gore product line. For cycling purposes, there are only two you should even consider -- Gore One and Active. Everything else is way too heavy. Active is pretty good (my primary jacket is the Gore Oxygen 2.0 AS) , but Gore One is to Active what Active is to Pro Shell. Gore One is almost like a windbreaker in terms of feel but it is fully waterproof/breathable and it scrunches down to the size of an orange. I extensively used prototypes in temps well below freezing and above. It's not very resistant to abrasion, so if you fall, you'll tear it up. In contrast, my Pro Shell wears like iron. I've collided with tree branches hard enough to bloody me up when skiing, but the jacket itself was fine.

But the waterproof breathable thing is totally real. I seriously cannot believe that anyone who has properly tried this gear can say otherwise. For serious alpine stuff, I wouldn't consider using anything else and it's incredibly useful for cycling.

This is absolutely correct.

Thanks, very helpful info. I'll keep that in mind when considering future purchases.

I appreciate your post more than you know.

The Windstopper jacket I mentioned in the first post is at least ten years old. It left me very wet on a dry February day when the temperature dropped. Wet led to cold and cold led to mild hypothermia. Again, this was probably 2005.

Can you characterize for me the improvement in windstopper breathablity since then, or even just speak about how much one should expect moisture to move away from the skin given today's Gore One fabric for example?

Given my experience above I'm hesitant to try a garment made of the product but have recently heard people saying good things about its ability to move moisture. I'm open to reconsidering Gore products as a decade is a long time to hold a grudge.

The bottom line is, how well will a Windstopper fabric move moisture for a guy who perspires constantly while on the bike? To be clear, I'm only talking about dry conditions, not riding in the rain.

Thanks again for the post.



-Tim-

I don't think it's that Windstopper has become more breathable. Think about it: what is wind made of? Air. Kinda hard to block the flow of air, yet remain breathable.


What I do think Gore has improved is the ventilation in its products that utilize windstopper fabric, and this is really for what you should be looking.


I have a Gore Phantom Windstopper jacket that I've used numerous times for rides in the 20s with nothing but a cold weather base layer underneath. The sleeves unzip from underneath the armpits specifically so that you can adjust ventilation. If I don't partially unzip the sleeves at the pit, I'll get a lot of moisture buildup and overheat, even in 20F degree weather. But if I unzip the sleeves such that there's an opening for heat to escape, I'm perfectly comfortable, warm, with minimal moisture buildup.

https://imgflip.com/download_image?i...1g2ylh&ext=jpg


:D

Goretex is a fine fabric. But a good material doesn't mean the product was/is designed well. Fabric has it's limits. To get the advantage of improved technical fabric you need a well designed product.... AND an educated user. Knowing how to wear what, when.... is much more important than having big bucks to throw down on cool gear.

Lots of gear is over hyped. I read crap about wool (another fine product) that just has nothing to do with the capabilities of the fabric.

I am an unpaid product tester. No need for me to issue a disclaimer. I am a consumer.

I took the time to read the quoted post. What you haven't addressed, and what I think is the critical issue for moderate to high effort cyclists, is condensation. If a jacket breathes properly, categorically, then condensation will not form inside the garment. That is where the issue is. Forget about keeping rain away from your body, concentrate on letting warm, moist air out of the garment before it condenses inside the garment and gets you wet.

A few years back I bought, from a major outdoor equipment retailer, a jacket to keep me dry on my hikes in rainy weather. It was made of Gore-tex, and it was reasonably priced. The first time I wore it I came home and found that there was moisture inside the jacket. I thought the jacket had leaked rain, but I eventually concluded that it was condensation due to warm, moist air not being released. I spoke with customer service from the outdoor company and was assured that if I got the top of the line Gore-tex product, the problem would be resolved. So, I returned the original jacket and got the super duper model (at ~ 3x the price) and proceeded to try that one. Pretty much the same problem, condensation forming inside the jacket after efforting in colder weather. Jacket had the zipped arm pits, etc. That's when I learned my lesson about outdoor sports clothing, and breathability of fabric, and where it's required and when it's not desired.

A few years later I got back into cycling, after a very long hiatus. I applied the knowledge described above when I chose a cold weather cycling jacket. I now have 2, fairly different, cycling jackets. What the 2 jackets have in common is the design concept I described in my previous post. Both jackets block wind in the front, release body heat out of the back. This is the way it's done folks.

It isn't really condensation that is the culprit, because the sweat starts out as a liquid, not as a vapor. It comes out of the body in liquid form. So the question is will it evaporate to be able to pass through the jacket or not. Unfortunately, like most chemical and physical processes evaporation and condensation both occur constantly and are in equilibrium. Same for the movement of moisture back and forth through the Goretex. So what you need to do is shift the equilibrium. That is what, as banerjek says, dry conditions outside the jacket accomplish. The rate of moisture moving is high, the rate moving back in is low. The inside dries out. I would clarify what he said about cold, however. Hot, dry air outside the jacket will make the Goretex work better, not cold, dry air. The problem is that it will also increase the rate of sweating inside the jacket. So on balance cold and dry outside is better. If you didn't have a human inside the jacket, just a constant mechanical source of moisture, dry and hot outside would give the highest rate of vapor transfer.

Seriously? If the air is hot and dry, then what's the need for the jacket? Trust me, the culprit is condensation of warm, moist air. Forget about sweat. I've experienced this way more than I've ever wanted to. I'd much rather ride in warmer temperatures.

What is your real life exposure to and experience with cold weather cycling? Come up from the warm comfort of the deep south and ride in the Great White North(east) and then make some informed conclusions. Ride for 2 hrs+ at effort in sub freezing temperatures and you will understand better.