Problems with gluing tubular
02-28-17 | 10:40 AM
#26
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,017
Likes: 925
From: Nor Cal
I've never understood the hand thing. People complain about their hands hurting when removing a tubular. Just doesn't make sense to me. The only thing I can figure is that people are actually trying to use their hands alone to get a tubular off of a rim? If so that's not how it works.
Use a tire lever to open a section and then use a round bladed screwdriver long enough to stick through both sides. Stick it through and then grab both sides of the screwdriver and roll it. Tire comes off in a few moments even if welded on.
As for Vittoria? No...they don't know. It's actually been studied and the data shows they don't. Don't take my word for it though - as cyclists exist in a world where they are their own experts and never want to listen to anyone who actually knows other than a faceless brand.,....
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...G1yOTBta0w2Rnc
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...E95amZVa3ZDSUU
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...0pRaFJ2bFZ1NHc
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...WtPRFJ6YkxDbGs
Use a tire lever to open a section and then use a round bladed screwdriver long enough to stick through both sides. Stick it through and then grab both sides of the screwdriver and roll it. Tire comes off in a few moments even if welded on.
As for Vittoria? No...they don't know. It's actually been studied and the data shows they don't. Don't take my word for it though - as cyclists exist in a world where they are their own experts and never want to listen to anyone who actually knows other than a faceless brand.,....
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...G1yOTBta0w2Rnc
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...E95amZVa3ZDSUU
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...0pRaFJ2bFZ1NHc
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...WtPRFJ6YkxDbGs
Thanks for those links. I do fine with a tire lever, but folks complain about their thumbs, so it must be a thing.
I rolled a tire once, BITD, but it was a spare that I had neglected to re-glue, had red Clement glue, & was under
extreme cornering. Living in a hilly area, I've checked the rim temp after long descents, & never registered
more than warm, but am careful to alternate brakes, etc..
Pro race mechanics are said to glue tires on very lightly. How does this square with all the recommended steps to
get strongest possible bond?
02-28-17 | 10:51 AM
#27
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,682
Likes: 63
From: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
The problem getting tubular off the rim occurs on the road. Think about it. One would tend not to have the necessary tire lever when running tubulars, and one also seldom would have a long enough bladed screwdriver in that situation. Back at home, the advice should be really helpful. Out on a ride there still could be an issue as I found out last week.
02-28-17 | 11:05 AM
#28
I eat carbide.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,678
Likes: 1,417
From: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Chapter2, Van Dessel, Giant, Trek, etc Dealers for BMC, Chapter2
Thanks for those links. I do fine with a tire lever, but folks complain about their thumbs, so it must be a thing.
I rolled a tire once, BITD, but it was a spare that I had neglected to re-glue, had red Clement glue, & was under
extreme cornering. Living in a hilly area, I've checked the rim temp after long descents, & never registered
more than warm, but am careful to alternate brakes, etc..
Pro race mechanics are said to glue tires on very lightly. How does this square with all the recommended steps to
get strongest possible bond?
I rolled a tire once, BITD, but it was a spare that I had neglected to re-glue, had red Clement glue, & was under
extreme cornering. Living in a hilly area, I've checked the rim temp after long descents, & never registered
more than warm, but am careful to alternate brakes, etc..
Pro race mechanics are said to glue tires on very lightly. How does this square with all the recommended steps to
get strongest possible bond?
I can't afford to do that work that way unless it's a rider of mine and they understand the risks.
As for most race mechanics - they don't know. Honestly. They just do what they were taught. If it seems to work for them then they think it's right. In reality a lot of their work is usually used for the event and then sent in to someone like me who pulls it and glues it up solid.
02-28-17 | 11:08 AM
#29
I eat carbide.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,678
Likes: 1,417
From: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Chapter2, Van Dessel, Giant, Trek, etc Dealers for BMC, Chapter2
The problem getting tubular off the rim occurs on the road. Think about it. One would tend not to have the necessary tire lever when running tubulars, and one also seldom would have a long enough bladed screwdriver in that situation. Back at home, the advice should be really helpful. Out on a ride there still could be an issue as I found out last week.
Personally - no thanks. I have to work with tubulars all day. My rides are my time. I'll stick with clinchers.
It's akin to the OB-GYN who isn't in the mood when they get home from work.
02-28-17 | 12:04 PM
#30
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,163
Likes: 20
I glue on average 300+ tires a year that are all used in racing. In the last 6 years or so I have had a small handful actually roll. On each one I have been able to do a post mortem to learn and adjust my techniques.
Here's the thing with gluing: most of the people that glue aren't really doing enough but they trick themselves into thinking it's fine because they never end up pushing the tire to the point of failure of the bond. For some that's the definition of gluing. For me - not so much. I can't afford to have a tire roll under any circumstance - even when it's operator error.
Let's start with the materials - Vittoria. Vittoria tires have a latex coating on the basetape. While this makes sense to them for some reason I have found that in 2 or 3 instances that we have had tires roll where the bond between the latex and the cotton base tape has given way - not our gluing. The tires glue up better if the latex is removed from the base tape before gluing. We use a 3m style abrasive wheel on a drill press to burr/buff the latex off and raise the cotton fibers of the base tape.
Even regular cotton base tapes are corrupted by hand oils, general dirt and grease from storage and transportation unless bagged. For those tires We still use a wheel and buff the tape to raise the fibers of the base cotton.
Mastik 1. Period. It develops a much stranger bond than any other glue out there. If you object is not to roll then don't use anything other than that. There is no discussion on this. Mastik 1 works on all tires.
Clean the f out of your rims. Sand them. Even if they OEM says not to sand them....sand them. 160+ grit or higher. Quickly until you raise a white dust of epoxy. I clean with 98% rubbing alcohol/Camp Fuel until rag no longer picks up carbon black.
1 coat on tire and rim. Tire base tape should be soaked to fully absorb the glue. should not have excess glue on it once absorbed. Rim - fairly thin coat but full coverage in every nook and cranny. this is the adhesion layer.
24 hrs is great if you have it. 6 hours is really a minimum. Bond strength is marginally better at 24 than 6 but only by a factor of 5% or less IIRC. Quick glue and mount (race mounting as we call it) is possible and will result in a bond strength that is roughly 40%. Fine for some who need the wheel "TOMORROW".
Second coat - same on tire. Rim - little thicker building a smooth base that can match the tire profile.
24 hrs. again.
Before mounting - We place the tire on a clean rim and pump it up to max pressure. This effectively opens up the base tape - creating small "cracks" in the glue. It's these cracks that allow fingers of fresh glue in easily to help mesh the layers when mounted. It also helps expand the tire out to the stretched size making centered mounting way easier.
Last coat on the rim - thicker coat. When done - deflate the tire on the stretching rim and pull it off. Take the mounting rim and place it on the ground. Start at the valve. Stretch hard in the first section - align and press to mount. Stretch around the rim until seated. Pump up to max pressure and spin to check for alignment of the tire. Adjust if needed.
We then deflate completely and roll the tire and wheel combo over either the air hose or broom handle to help push the base tape into the base of the rim. We then re-inflate to roughly 40-50 psi cross tire and about 80 psi on the road. Let sit.
The result is a tire that is roughly welded to the rim. We often can not remove a tire in 1 piece even if we take out time.
I do a good enough job to be one of the few that still mounts a TON of tires each season. I charge a lot of money to do it and a lot of people gladly pay for it. Usually after they try to follow these specific instructions and fail.
I have trained a lot of employees on how exactly to do this and never fail - they end up with different results. As a result I personally glue everything. These are intelligent people too. Goes to show it's not just controlling the variables - there is a bit of skill involved as well. I am still trying to pinpoint where they are different than me and I believe it probably lies in the thickness of the layers.
Here's the thing with gluing: most of the people that glue aren't really doing enough but they trick themselves into thinking it's fine because they never end up pushing the tire to the point of failure of the bond. For some that's the definition of gluing. For me - not so much. I can't afford to have a tire roll under any circumstance - even when it's operator error.
Let's start with the materials - Vittoria. Vittoria tires have a latex coating on the basetape. While this makes sense to them for some reason I have found that in 2 or 3 instances that we have had tires roll where the bond between the latex and the cotton base tape has given way - not our gluing. The tires glue up better if the latex is removed from the base tape before gluing. We use a 3m style abrasive wheel on a drill press to burr/buff the latex off and raise the cotton fibers of the base tape.
Even regular cotton base tapes are corrupted by hand oils, general dirt and grease from storage and transportation unless bagged. For those tires We still use a wheel and buff the tape to raise the fibers of the base cotton.
Mastik 1. Period. It develops a much stranger bond than any other glue out there. If you object is not to roll then don't use anything other than that. There is no discussion on this. Mastik 1 works on all tires.
Clean the f out of your rims. Sand them. Even if they OEM says not to sand them....sand them. 160+ grit or higher. Quickly until you raise a white dust of epoxy. I clean with 98% rubbing alcohol/Camp Fuel until rag no longer picks up carbon black.
1 coat on tire and rim. Tire base tape should be soaked to fully absorb the glue. should not have excess glue on it once absorbed. Rim - fairly thin coat but full coverage in every nook and cranny. this is the adhesion layer.
24 hrs is great if you have it. 6 hours is really a minimum. Bond strength is marginally better at 24 than 6 but only by a factor of 5% or less IIRC. Quick glue and mount (race mounting as we call it) is possible and will result in a bond strength that is roughly 40%. Fine for some who need the wheel "TOMORROW".
Second coat - same on tire. Rim - little thicker building a smooth base that can match the tire profile.
24 hrs. again.
Before mounting - We place the tire on a clean rim and pump it up to max pressure. This effectively opens up the base tape - creating small "cracks" in the glue. It's these cracks that allow fingers of fresh glue in easily to help mesh the layers when mounted. It also helps expand the tire out to the stretched size making centered mounting way easier.
Last coat on the rim - thicker coat. When done - deflate the tire on the stretching rim and pull it off. Take the mounting rim and place it on the ground. Start at the valve. Stretch hard in the first section - align and press to mount. Stretch around the rim until seated. Pump up to max pressure and spin to check for alignment of the tire. Adjust if needed.
We then deflate completely and roll the tire and wheel combo over either the air hose or broom handle to help push the base tape into the base of the rim. We then re-inflate to roughly 40-50 psi cross tire and about 80 psi on the road. Let sit.
The result is a tire that is roughly welded to the rim. We often can not remove a tire in 1 piece even if we take out time.
I do a good enough job to be one of the few that still mounts a TON of tires each season. I charge a lot of money to do it and a lot of people gladly pay for it. Usually after they try to follow these specific instructions and fail.
I have trained a lot of employees on how exactly to do this and never fail - they end up with different results. As a result I personally glue everything. These are intelligent people too. Goes to show it's not just controlling the variables - there is a bit of skill involved as well. I am still trying to pinpoint where they are different than me and I believe it probably lies in the thickness of the layers.
02-28-17 | 12:59 PM
#31
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 10,588
Likes: 427
From: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
The problem getting tubular off the rim occurs on the road. Think about it. One would tend not to have the necessary tire lever when running tubulars, and one also seldom would have a long enough bladed screwdriver in that situation. Back at home, the advice should be really helpful. Out on a ride there still could be an issue as I found out last week.
I kept my son on tubulars often as he was in good cell coverage area and when he flatted I'd pick him up. I thought they were safer/better.
I'd do that once ever year or so.
Now he is at college he rides normal rides on clinchers for the same reason I do. When he goes dirt/gravel - he still takes the risk, no spare and rides tubulars knowing he can ride them home flat if he needs.
Last edited by Doge; 02-28-17 at 01:18 PM.
02-28-17 | 01:16 PM
#32
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 10,588
Likes: 427
From: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Good read.
I'm way behind you but have been gluing so since the late 70s and the guy I worked for was a Clement importer. I still glue double digits a year for kid, me, team. As you know glue has changed and so has my method. I used to use Vittoria Red as base then the white stuff (Tubasti/Panisonic/Soyo) for the mounting layer. I used tubulars on my tandem too and not melting Vittoria Red was a challenge. I would roll on the rim, not crash, at the bottom of a hill after hard tandem braking. Mastic One made life less exciting.
I have no plan or desire to change a tubular on the road. The flat tire is not ridden anymore that day (unless it is a candidate for Stans/Pit Stop). But I do value being able to get a tire off with base tape still on the tire and not the rim. As the bond ages it seemed the rim bond was always the better bond. Your point about latex on the tape is a good one. Many tapes are not as well adhered as your/my gluing job. I just don't glue as hard as you because I think something I can remove and still use again is good enough. Thanks to Peter Sagan the kids like doing drifts on their road bikes and although I cringe seeing that I use that as my standard. A tubular glue job that the rider can drift on pavement and dirt and weak enough to remove with base tape on tire is what I shoot for. I also am very concerned about give/Crr so I am big on the edge coating (as I already mentioned). The glue in the center isn't doing much so I go light there.
I'm way behind you but have been gluing so since the late 70s and the guy I worked for was a Clement importer. I still glue double digits a year for kid, me, team. As you know glue has changed and so has my method. I used to use Vittoria Red as base then the white stuff (Tubasti/Panisonic/Soyo) for the mounting layer. I used tubulars on my tandem too and not melting Vittoria Red was a challenge. I would roll on the rim, not crash, at the bottom of a hill after hard tandem braking. Mastic One made life less exciting.
I have no plan or desire to change a tubular on the road. The flat tire is not ridden anymore that day (unless it is a candidate for Stans/Pit Stop). But I do value being able to get a tire off with base tape still on the tire and not the rim. As the bond ages it seemed the rim bond was always the better bond. Your point about latex on the tape is a good one. Many tapes are not as well adhered as your/my gluing job. I just don't glue as hard as you because I think something I can remove and still use again is good enough. Thanks to Peter Sagan the kids like doing drifts on their road bikes and although I cringe seeing that I use that as my standard. A tubular glue job that the rider can drift on pavement and dirt and weak enough to remove with base tape on tire is what I shoot for. I also am very concerned about give/Crr so I am big on the edge coating (as I already mentioned). The glue in the center isn't doing much so I go light there.
02-28-17 | 05:10 PM
#33
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 566
Likes: 109
Second the tire lever. No need to have painful thumbs! My time to change a tubular on the road is no more than it would be to change a clincher. Again, it is the fear / mystique of tubulars that frighten so many off. Having seen how quickly a bike goes down when a clincher flat leaves bare rim on the road I am perfectly happy to put up with a perceived inconvenience.
02-28-17 | 09:01 PM
#34
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,849
Likes: 751
From: Pasadena, CA
Bikes: Schwinn Varsity
What happened to people using Tubasti? That's what I used for 12 years.... forty years ago and never had a tire roll off. And I didn't use that much of it, and I didn't need a tire lever to change a tire. Isn't this the road forum, where you ride the road and sometimes get a flat tire?.... oh but now you have a cell phone to call the Mrs. if you flat. I cannot understand putting so much glue on a tire you need to cut it off with a knife. And for the racers rolling tires... maybe it's best not to put the tire on the rim the night before you race.
03-02-17 | 02:19 AM
#36
Thread Starter
RacingBear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,053
Likes: 68
From: NorCal
I have seen it happen twice in the race situation. Once as a bystander another in a pack in front of me.
After flatting in Everest Challenge with no neutral car in sight and having to change it I now race clinchers in road races. Cam in handy at Chico RR when I flatted on mile 40/90.
Crits/circuit races? Tubulars all the way. Saved my bacon couple of times. Incidentally on same course.
After flatting in Everest Challenge with no neutral car in sight and having to change it I now race clinchers in road races. Cam in handy at Chico RR when I flatted on mile 40/90.
Crits/circuit races? Tubulars all the way. Saved my bacon couple of times. Incidentally on same course.
03-02-17 | 02:21 AM
#37
Thread Starter
RacingBear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,053
Likes: 68
From: NorCal
I glue on average 300+ tires a year that are all used in racing. In the last 6 years or so I have had a small handful actually roll. On each one I have been able to do a post mortem to learn and adjust my techniques.
Here's the thing with gluing: most of the people that glue aren't really doing enough but they trick themselves into thinking it's fine because they never end up pushing the tire to the point of failure of the bond. For some that's the definition of gluing. For me - not so much. I can't afford to have a tire roll under any circumstance - even when it's operator error.
Let's start with the materials - Vittoria. Vittoria tires have a latex coating on the basetape. While this makes sense to them for some reason I have found that in 2 or 3 instances that we have had tires roll where the bond between the latex and the cotton base tape has given way - not our gluing. The tires glue up better if the latex is removed from the base tape before gluing. We use a 3m style abrasive wheel on a drill press to burr/buff the latex off and raise the cotton fibers of the base tape.
Even regular cotton base tapes are corrupted by hand oils, general dirt and grease from storage and transportation unless bagged. For those tires We still use a wheel and buff the tape to raise the fibers of the base cotton.
Mastik 1. Period. It develops a much stranger bond than any other glue out there. If you object is not to roll then don't use anything other than that. There is no discussion on this. Mastik 1 works on all tires.
Clean the f out of your rims. Sand them. Even if they OEM says not to sand them....sand them. 160+ grit or higher. Quickly until you raise a white dust of epoxy. I clean with 98% rubbing alcohol/Camp Fuel until rag no longer picks up carbon black.
1 coat on tire and rim. Tire base tape should be soaked to fully absorb the glue. should not have excess glue on it once absorbed. Rim - fairly thin coat but full coverage in every nook and cranny. this is the adhesion layer.
24 hrs is great if you have it. 6 hours is really a minimum. Bond strength is marginally better at 24 than 6 but only by a factor of 5% or less IIRC. Quick glue and mount (race mounting as we call it) is possible and will result in a bond strength that is roughly 40%. Fine for some who need the wheel "TOMORROW".
Second coat - same on tire. Rim - little thicker building a smooth base that can match the tire profile.
24 hrs. again.
Before mounting - We place the tire on a clean rim and pump it up to max pressure. This effectively opens up the base tape - creating small "cracks" in the glue. It's these cracks that allow fingers of fresh glue in easily to help mesh the layers when mounted. It also helps expand the tire out to the stretched size making centered mounting way easier.
Last coat on the rim - thicker coat. When done - deflate the tire on the stretching rim and pull it off. Take the mounting rim and place it on the ground. Start at the valve. Stretch hard in the first section - align and press to mount. Stretch around the rim until seated. Pump up to max pressure and spin to check for alignment of the tire. Adjust if needed.
We then deflate completely and roll the tire and wheel combo over either the air hose or broom handle to help push the base tape into the base of the rim. We then re-inflate to roughly 40-50 psi cross tire and about 80 psi on the road. Let sit.
The result is a tire that is roughly welded to the rim. We often can not remove a tire in 1 piece even if we take out time.
I do a good enough job to be one of the few that still mounts a TON of tires each season. I charge a lot of money to do it and a lot of people gladly pay for it. Usually after they try to follow these specific instructions and fail.
I have trained a lot of employees on how exactly to do this and never fail - they end up with different results. As a result I personally glue everything. These are intelligent people too. Goes to show it's not just controlling the variables - there is a bit of skill involved as well. I am still trying to pinpoint where they are different than me and I believe it probably lies in the thickness of the layers.
Here's the thing with gluing: most of the people that glue aren't really doing enough but they trick themselves into thinking it's fine because they never end up pushing the tire to the point of failure of the bond. For some that's the definition of gluing. For me - not so much. I can't afford to have a tire roll under any circumstance - even when it's operator error.
Let's start with the materials - Vittoria. Vittoria tires have a latex coating on the basetape. While this makes sense to them for some reason I have found that in 2 or 3 instances that we have had tires roll where the bond between the latex and the cotton base tape has given way - not our gluing. The tires glue up better if the latex is removed from the base tape before gluing. We use a 3m style abrasive wheel on a drill press to burr/buff the latex off and raise the cotton fibers of the base tape.
Even regular cotton base tapes are corrupted by hand oils, general dirt and grease from storage and transportation unless bagged. For those tires We still use a wheel and buff the tape to raise the fibers of the base cotton.
Mastik 1. Period. It develops a much stranger bond than any other glue out there. If you object is not to roll then don't use anything other than that. There is no discussion on this. Mastik 1 works on all tires.
Clean the f out of your rims. Sand them. Even if they OEM says not to sand them....sand them. 160+ grit or higher. Quickly until you raise a white dust of epoxy. I clean with 98% rubbing alcohol/Camp Fuel until rag no longer picks up carbon black.
1 coat on tire and rim. Tire base tape should be soaked to fully absorb the glue. should not have excess glue on it once absorbed. Rim - fairly thin coat but full coverage in every nook and cranny. this is the adhesion layer.
24 hrs is great if you have it. 6 hours is really a minimum. Bond strength is marginally better at 24 than 6 but only by a factor of 5% or less IIRC. Quick glue and mount (race mounting as we call it) is possible and will result in a bond strength that is roughly 40%. Fine for some who need the wheel "TOMORROW".
Second coat - same on tire. Rim - little thicker building a smooth base that can match the tire profile.
24 hrs. again.
Before mounting - We place the tire on a clean rim and pump it up to max pressure. This effectively opens up the base tape - creating small "cracks" in the glue. It's these cracks that allow fingers of fresh glue in easily to help mesh the layers when mounted. It also helps expand the tire out to the stretched size making centered mounting way easier.
Last coat on the rim - thicker coat. When done - deflate the tire on the stretching rim and pull it off. Take the mounting rim and place it on the ground. Start at the valve. Stretch hard in the first section - align and press to mount. Stretch around the rim until seated. Pump up to max pressure and spin to check for alignment of the tire. Adjust if needed.
We then deflate completely and roll the tire and wheel combo over either the air hose or broom handle to help push the base tape into the base of the rim. We then re-inflate to roughly 40-50 psi cross tire and about 80 psi on the road. Let sit.
The result is a tire that is roughly welded to the rim. We often can not remove a tire in 1 piece even if we take out time.
I do a good enough job to be one of the few that still mounts a TON of tires each season. I charge a lot of money to do it and a lot of people gladly pay for it. Usually after they try to follow these specific instructions and fail.
I have trained a lot of employees on how exactly to do this and never fail - they end up with different results. As a result I personally glue everything. These are intelligent people too. Goes to show it's not just controlling the variables - there is a bit of skill involved as well. I am still trying to pinpoint where they are different than me and I believe it probably lies in the thickness of the layers.
Thanks. I'll incorporate these steps in to my gluing. Maybe my field, CAT3, doesn't go as fast as pro1/2 but we still boogie around corners, and as I mentioned in other thread about using tape I don't want to be that guy.
03-02-17 | 08:37 AM
#38
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 10,588
Likes: 427
From: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
How corners are taken seems to vary by category and location.
03-02-17 | 11:46 AM
#39
I eat carbide.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,678
Likes: 1,417
From: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Chapter2, Van Dessel, Giant, Trek, etc Dealers for BMC, Chapter2
Here in Crit-cago they are taken within an inch of their lives. It's always fun when the boys from out west come in and find themselves lost in midwest crits - except some of the socal guys. they can crit too.
One of my favorite stories: new kid who blew through the categories on his way to being picked up by Texas Roadhouse. Got an invite to race a few of the USA Crits race, etc. That season he is still local and racing on a team I worked with. Got him his new wheel setup and tubulars. Delivered them at a crit that was super turn-ridden. Something like 12 corners in a 0.8 mile course.
A lot of it was un-even pavement changes. Being routed through a parking lot, etc. Something where builds I do seem to ride above the lighter flexy stuff. Kid runs away with the win. Out corners everyone the whole race. "I could corner faster than everyone else. I don't know what it was. I would push it and then where I would normally hold tight I just pushed further and everything held. It was awesome."
I look at the tires and in that 1 60 minute crit he had worn the hot-patches completely off the sidewalls.
It's at times like that when you realize that 95% of the riders using this stuff will never really understand what it is capable of doing and just physically can't push that hard. For them the greasy glue job that's easy to remove works great. Hell clinchers work great for them.
One of my favorite stories: new kid who blew through the categories on his way to being picked up by Texas Roadhouse. Got an invite to race a few of the USA Crits race, etc. That season he is still local and racing on a team I worked with. Got him his new wheel setup and tubulars. Delivered them at a crit that was super turn-ridden. Something like 12 corners in a 0.8 mile course.
A lot of it was un-even pavement changes. Being routed through a parking lot, etc. Something where builds I do seem to ride above the lighter flexy stuff. Kid runs away with the win. Out corners everyone the whole race. "I could corner faster than everyone else. I don't know what it was. I would push it and then where I would normally hold tight I just pushed further and everything held. It was awesome."
I look at the tires and in that 1 60 minute crit he had worn the hot-patches completely off the sidewalls.
It's at times like that when you realize that 95% of the riders using this stuff will never really understand what it is capable of doing and just physically can't push that hard. For them the greasy glue job that's easy to remove works great. Hell clinchers work great for them.
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03-04-17 | 10:54 AM
#41
Senior Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
From: Pico Rivera CA
Bikes: trek 2.1, scott cr1 sl '06, ridley helium '10, univega gran premio and a look 595.
It would depend on the racer. A climber might enjoy Southern California since there are higher chances of racing in some nice climbs. On the other hand eastern cities with higher population can probably summon a more competitive field than what would be available (smaller cities) in nor Cal.
03-04-17 | 11:58 PM
#42
Thread Starter
RacingBear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,053
Likes: 68
From: NorCal
Anyway.... back to subject of not doing ****ty job of gluing tubulars. @Psimet2001 is this what you use to strip latex from basetape, and maybe glue from rims? https://www.amazon.com/3M-Paint-Rust...ll+attachments
11-14-24 | 02:27 PM
#43
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 1,948
Likes: 784
From: San Diego
Bikes: Columbine, Lynskey GR300, Paramount Track Bike, Colnago Super (4), Santana Tandems (1995 & 2007), Gary Fisher Piranha (retired), Bianchi Track Bike, a couple of Honda mountain bikes
I glue on average 300+ tires a year that are all used in racing. In the last 6 years or so I have had a small handful actually roll. On each one I have been able to do a post mortem to learn and adjust my techniques.
Here's the thing with gluing: most of the people that glue aren't really doing enough but they trick themselves into thinking it's fine because they never end up pushing the tire to the point of failure of the bond. For some that's the definition of gluing. For me - not so much. I can't afford to have a tire roll under any circumstance - even when it's operator error.
Let's start with the materials - Vittoria. Vittoria tires have a latex coating on the basetape. While this makes sense to them for some reason I have found that in 2 or 3 instances that we have had tires roll where the bond between the latex and the cotton base tape has given way - not our gluing. The tires glue up better if the latex is removed from the base tape before gluing. We use a 3m style abrasive wheel on a drill press to burr/buff the latex off and raise the cotton fibers of the base tape.
Even regular cotton base tapes are corrupted by hand oils, general dirt and grease from storage and transportation unless bagged. For those tires We still use a wheel and buff the tape to raise the fibers of the base cotton.
Mastik 1. Period. It develops a much stranger bond than any other glue out there. If you object is not to roll then don't use anything other than that. There is no discussion on this. Mastik 1 works on all tires.
Clean the f out of your rims. Sand them. Even if they OEM says not to sand them....sand them. 160+ grit or higher. Quickly until you raise a white dust of epoxy. I clean with 98% rubbing alcohol/Camp Fuel until rag no longer picks up carbon black.
1 coat on tire and rim. Tire base tape should be soaked to fully absorb the glue. should not have excess glue on it once absorbed. Rim - fairly thin coat but full coverage in every nook and cranny. this is the adhesion layer.
24 hrs is great if you have it. 6 hours is really a minimum. Bond strength is marginally better at 24 than 6 but only by a factor of 5% or less IIRC. Quick glue and mount (race mounting as we call it) is possible and will result in a bond strength that is roughly 40%. Fine for some who need the wheel "TOMORROW".
Second coat - same on tire. Rim - little thicker building a smooth base that can match the tire profile.
24 hrs. again.
Before mounting - We place the tire on a clean rim and pump it up to max pressure. This effectively opens up the base tape - creating small "cracks" in the glue. It's these cracks that allow fingers of fresh glue in easily to help mesh the layers when mounted. It also helps expand the tire out to the stretched size making centered mounting way easier.
Last coat on the rim - thicker coat. When done - deflate the tire on the stretching rim and pull it off. Take the mounting rim and place it on the ground. Start at the valve. Stretch hard in the first section - align and press to mount. Stretch around the rim until seated. Pump up to max pressure and spin to check for alignment of the tire. Adjust if needed.
We then deflate completely and roll the tire and wheel combo over either the air hose or broom handle to help push the base tape into the base of the rim. We then re-inflate to roughly 40-50 psi cross tire and about 80 psi on the road. Let sit.
The result is a tire that is roughly welded to the rim. We often can not remove a tire in 1 piece even if we take out time.
I do a good enough job to be one of the few that still mounts a TON of tires each season. I charge a lot of money to do it and a lot of people gladly pay for it. Usually after they try to follow these specific instructions and fail.
I have trained a lot of employees on how exactly to do this and never fail - they end up with different results. As a result I personally glue everything. These are intelligent people too. Goes to show it's not just controlling the variables - there is a bit of skill involved as well. I am still trying to pinpoint where they are different than me and I believe it probably lies in the thickness of the layers.
Here's the thing with gluing: most of the people that glue aren't really doing enough but they trick themselves into thinking it's fine because they never end up pushing the tire to the point of failure of the bond. For some that's the definition of gluing. For me - not so much. I can't afford to have a tire roll under any circumstance - even when it's operator error.
Let's start with the materials - Vittoria. Vittoria tires have a latex coating on the basetape. While this makes sense to them for some reason I have found that in 2 or 3 instances that we have had tires roll where the bond between the latex and the cotton base tape has given way - not our gluing. The tires glue up better if the latex is removed from the base tape before gluing. We use a 3m style abrasive wheel on a drill press to burr/buff the latex off and raise the cotton fibers of the base tape.
Even regular cotton base tapes are corrupted by hand oils, general dirt and grease from storage and transportation unless bagged. For those tires We still use a wheel and buff the tape to raise the fibers of the base cotton.
Mastik 1. Period. It develops a much stranger bond than any other glue out there. If you object is not to roll then don't use anything other than that. There is no discussion on this. Mastik 1 works on all tires.
Clean the f out of your rims. Sand them. Even if they OEM says not to sand them....sand them. 160+ grit or higher. Quickly until you raise a white dust of epoxy. I clean with 98% rubbing alcohol/Camp Fuel until rag no longer picks up carbon black.
1 coat on tire and rim. Tire base tape should be soaked to fully absorb the glue. should not have excess glue on it once absorbed. Rim - fairly thin coat but full coverage in every nook and cranny. this is the adhesion layer.
24 hrs is great if you have it. 6 hours is really a minimum. Bond strength is marginally better at 24 than 6 but only by a factor of 5% or less IIRC. Quick glue and mount (race mounting as we call it) is possible and will result in a bond strength that is roughly 40%. Fine for some who need the wheel "TOMORROW".
Second coat - same on tire. Rim - little thicker building a smooth base that can match the tire profile.
24 hrs. again.
Before mounting - We place the tire on a clean rim and pump it up to max pressure. This effectively opens up the base tape - creating small "cracks" in the glue. It's these cracks that allow fingers of fresh glue in easily to help mesh the layers when mounted. It also helps expand the tire out to the stretched size making centered mounting way easier.
Last coat on the rim - thicker coat. When done - deflate the tire on the stretching rim and pull it off. Take the mounting rim and place it on the ground. Start at the valve. Stretch hard in the first section - align and press to mount. Stretch around the rim until seated. Pump up to max pressure and spin to check for alignment of the tire. Adjust if needed.
We then deflate completely and roll the tire and wheel combo over either the air hose or broom handle to help push the base tape into the base of the rim. We then re-inflate to roughly 40-50 psi cross tire and about 80 psi on the road. Let sit.
The result is a tire that is roughly welded to the rim. We often can not remove a tire in 1 piece even if we take out time.
I do a good enough job to be one of the few that still mounts a TON of tires each season. I charge a lot of money to do it and a lot of people gladly pay for it. Usually after they try to follow these specific instructions and fail.
I have trained a lot of employees on how exactly to do this and never fail - they end up with different results. As a result I personally glue everything. These are intelligent people too. Goes to show it's not just controlling the variables - there is a bit of skill involved as well. I am still trying to pinpoint where they are different than me and I believe it probably lies in the thickness of the layers.
Does a thicker layer of continental carbon glue on the rim cause a problem? Getting it out of the can on the brush and applying to the rim was difficult at best and resulted in some thick layers. Is there anything that can be used to dilute it a bit so it goes on easier?
Does Mastik-1 work for carbon rims?
