kbarch

That's the difference between an insane price to charge and an insane price to pay. When people say it, I think they usually mean the latter.

Maelochs

I'd have to agree ... a custom-designed, hand-built frame is either going to cost a fair chunk or be unreliable, because no skilled craftsman is going to sell his/her work cheap. Anyone intent on undercutting the competition is either just starting or isn't very skilled ... you take your chances.

$4000 for a frame you will have for literally the rest of your life, which is perfectly suited to your needs and desires .... if you have that kind of budget for a bike to begin with ... better to buy full custom than off the rack, I think.

Even that Mosaic ... it is beautiful., not sure of it is custom-built for each buyer ... but if it is, then sure ... you pay for custom work.

A properly optioned Ford Fiesta is about as quick in real-world driving as a Chevrolet Corvette for about a third of the price. Corvette buyers do not care.

EDIT: Your clarification was posted while I was typing. I understand your point now. So ... check out that Motobecain ....

indyfabz

That may be the case, but that doesn't make the price "insane" by any accepted meaning of that term I am familiar with. Words have meaning. Choose them carefully and you will communicate your ideas more effectively.

gurk700

I already said you're right. Further discussion is moot.

indyfabz

In the case of my frame, neither is insane. Here in the big city I know of at least one bike shop that charges twice that much/hr. for simply working on an existing bike. Makes the per/hr. cost of building my frame from scratch seem dirt cheap, especially when that rate also includes the tubing itself.

Kopsis

There are several factors. One is that builders offering high-end framesets build with tubesets crafted from aircraft-grade Ti alloys. Raw Ti that meets aircraft specs is expensive to produce, and turning it into high quality tubesets is also expensive. It's difficult to draw at room temperature and very prone to galling and cracking if the tooling isn't perfectly polished, clean, and properly lubricated with special dry film lubricants. These forming challenges keep the number of tubeset manufacturers small, and that, in turn, keeps prices high.

Now, once you get a tubeset into the hands of a builder, the labor to build a frame is higher because the material is hard to work. Welding is the only means of joining tubes, and welding Ti takes good equipment and a high degree of skill. Google for "titanium weld failure" and you'll get over 400k results. Ti is reactive when it gets hot, so even cutting has to be done with care using low speeds and good lubrication/cooling. The extra effort translates to hours, and the skill and knowledge required makes those hours valuable. Few skilled metal workers will spend their hours making bicycle frames when they could make significantly more money making aircraft parts. So you're basically paying someone with the skills to fabricate parts for rockets and fighter jets to build a bike frame out of one of the most expensive tubing materials -- what would you expect to pay?

Silvercivic27

I don't want a frame that I'm going to ride for the rest of my life. I like having a new frame every few years. Also, the same doesn't fit you right forever either, so even if you go full custom, what fits you now probably won't fit you that great in 5 or 10 years. Food for thought.

Maelochs

I'm with you on the fit. I wouldn't mind having a lifetime bike ... i can always sell and buy secondary bikes as desired. But I know my "perfect fit:" isn't going to last.

For someone in the 24-45 age range, one could expect a specific fir (tunable with spacer and stem angle) to fit for a few decades at least. I don;'t even know if I will be physically able to ride in ten years ... or I might be forced to buy a bent.

Still I bet I could order up a endurance-geometry frame which would last me the rest of my riding career (with alterations to spacer stack and stem length and angle) and probably still be rideable (assuming I don't crash and disable any more joints.) And if the bike really fit that well, and had that good a ride (Ti frame is really all about a supple ride) .... well it will never be in my budget, but I can see where a lot of riders would want one.

If I could only own one bike at a time, I might want to trade up every few years, but I have a couple bikes, so I can always swap between them. I don't get bored with any of them.

Others could feel differently, and would thus respond differently.

smarkinson

So now you are saying you want a Vamoots RSL - Moots?

Hiro11

In 1989 as a young teenager, I bought a Tommasini Prestige (SLX) frame. That was pretty much the finest, most bling frame you could buy at the time, something like a Colnago C60 might be close these days. The Tommasini had very detailed paint and chrome and rode like a dream. I paid about $800 for the frame at Colorado Cyclist. Eddy Merckx, Colnago, Rossi, Pinarello, Ciocc etc, they all were about the same price. I got the money for the frame from mowing lawns for a month or two and saving birthday money. There's no way in hell a teenaged lawnboy could buy an equivalent frame these days. Yuppies got into the sport and pricing has gone off the rails.

Maelochs

Last year I paid $450 for a Chinese replica of a Cervelo R3. It weighs the same, works the same, rides the same, and it cost half in today's dollars than what you paid ion 9189 dollars for that Tomassini, which with inflation is probably $2200 right now ... which is about what a real Cervelo R3 frame would have cost.

Yeah, bikes have shifted more toward a luxury item in the past two decades---but don't blame the yuppies. Shoot, I could blame the kids who saved up for those $800 Tomassini frames back then ... if they had just bought an $800 Bike instead of an $800 Frame, no one would have been able to sell $800 frames and the prices wouldn't have risen.

My parents paid under $20K for a house in the early fifties. My first car cost less than my first mountain bike (I bought it 10 years earlier.) My current car cost about 12 or 15 times what I paid for my first car. Danged Yuppies.

Saving $800 in 1989 was quite a feat. Minimum wage was $3.35 which means for a 40-hour week after taxes you were barely clearing $100 per week,..l. I guess if you lived at home that helped. On the other hand .... i had a series of part-time jobs, and really low-paying full-time jobs (some min wage, some salary which worked out to even less) and had my own apartment, and managed to save up $850 for a mountain bike in 1989 .... So if I lived at home and had a $7/hr fast food job nowadays, I'd be bringing home what, $210 per week or $225 ... say $750 per month after buying a couple beers every weekend ... in the course of a summer I could by a whole Colnago C60---the Bike, not just the frame.

I admire your devotion and dedication which let you amass $800 for a frame and who knows how much for the rest of the build .... I know it took some effort and some discipline. And ... i bet you could do it again today if you had that same dedication and discipline ... so long as you don't have kids.

Kids ruin everything.

zymphad

Good luck with your search. I think you ought to consider the Motobecane or a Taiwanese Titanium.

gsa103

Titanium is extremely difficult to machine and weld, in addition to the raw material cost. Welding titanium is frequently done in a chamber, because it's easier to completely purge the oxygen.

In order of frame cost:
Steel < aluminum < carbon fiber < titanium

Maelochs

Ahhh .... never mind. This is pointless.

kbarch

Interesting story, but it doesn't sound like frame prices are completely off the rails by that analogy. From the time I was in high school in the early 80's (albeit a few years before you) to today, prices for everything have gone up on average about five times (a can of soda was 25 cents, a new home could be had for $30k), so one would expect a frame the same caliber as your Tommasini to go for about $4k today. Although cf frames can go for more, $4k for a steel frame is a lot, but it's in line. I only wonder if lawnboys can charge $100 to mow and trim a lawn today, so they can manage to get a fancy bike as quickly as you got yours.
By the way, to further jack this thread: anyone recall how Dave, in Breaking Away, managed to afford that Masi? I figure it went for maybe as much as $400 - not much less than some of the cars on his dad's lot....

Kopsis

You're technically correct (since "forever" is a pretty long time) . But assuming you're a moderately trained cyclist between the ages of 20 and 60, your body dimensions aren't going to change enough under normal circumstances to affect frame dimensions. The changes a rider is likely to need as they age are well within the range of what you can do with stem and saddle position adjustments. So one could easily get 40+ years of use out of a well designed and well built frame.

Naturally if the passage of time leads to a change in the type of riding you do (eg. road racing to light touring, paved to gravel, etc.) then you may find yourself wanting a different style frame, but that's not because the old frame doesn't fit you, it's because the old frame doesn't fit your riding. That's really the big consideration with a "forever frame" -- will you be happy with the same type of riding and the same level of technology decades into the future? Unfortunately, for those who are experienced enough to confidently answer "yes", forever is short enough that just about any good frame can endure it.

zymphad

Yeah... That's the wrong mentality. Just because someone charges obnoxious prices on servicing doesn't making custom frame pricing reasonable. Bike maintenance is mindless work, it's so simple. The electronicss eTap etc are even easier. Also custom frame manufacturing is obnoxious too, you're paying for manufacturing that is purposefully most costly, inefficient and time consuming. Whatever floats your boat.

I rather build and maintain my own bike, and well, my body isn't so special that I need a custom bike, I like billions of others can fit onto a standard sized mass produced frame.

indyfabz

No shame in being ordinary. "Be yourself, everyone else is already taken."--Oscar Wilde

WhyFi

They ship your frame on that slow boat from China yet or still giving you excuses?

69chevy

If I were to have a custom frame built, I'd take my current (mass produced) bike to the builder and say "copy this exactly".


I'm 6'3" with a 34" inseam.


Am I "ordinary"?

indyfabz

Yes, but for other reasons.

69chevy

Please explain.

indyfabz

Someone extraordinary would be able to figure out why on their own.

sh00k

#1 - quoting the pic so people can see it again. this bike is gorgeous

#2 - price reflects a niche/boutique/artisanal/small-scale builder with a curated product line that obtains customers organically

69chevy

So someone extraordinary could figure out why they were ordinary?


Are you sitting in the oval office killing time, using an alias?