Can those with this clanking issue weigh in on this?
 

A couple of questions:

1) Is this the source of the clanking noise - the spacer cap that fits over the collar?

2)If so, what solutions are there to stop the rattling?

2018Roubaix, in response to your questions in bold above based upon Rob's post....Rob shows a lack of understanding that should be explained about the design.

I have made the repeated point, the design is poor because its sensitive to rattle which is clearly true based upon all the anecdotal accounts. Press Fit as also mentioned is exactly the same. Some rattle and some don't. And the question was asked, if some don't rattle, is the design bad? Answer is, not for them. :)

What separates those that rattle based upon a sensitive design? which includes both FS and Press Fit?
1. Tolerance stack up of how individual parts fit together
2. How the bike is assembled.

Same for FS and Press Fit.

Further, I would say without a controlled experiment which would have a level of error in it anyway, that the 'majority'...perhaps the vast majority of both FS and Press Fit can be quieted with proper adjustment. Problem is, finding a guy to adjust it properly and who understands the design. Same for Press Fit. I have quieted countless Press Fit BB's that the local bike shop couldn't for friends as most race bikes are now Press Fit of various types.

Take Rob's comments. He tried to 'tighten down grub screws' but couldn't. The top screws are not adjustment screws. They are lock screws to the small dia and pitch allen set screws underneath that adjust the collar preload.
They won't budge. They need to be loosened. The question for example that I posed to Dan who he couldn't answer as to why this design came about is...if you have a lock screw on top of a set screw that is relatively unrestrained other than prevailing torque due to preload, why should the top lock screw break away from the set screw when unscrewing the lock screw? Ans: Because thread pitch is different. For the same screw rotation the top screw with courser pitch will unthread at a faster rate than the lower less restrained set screw. What is the inherent weakness in this design? Because tightening the top lock screw will inherently bias torque of the bottom screw because the bottom set screw that determines headset preload is only restrained by preload.

That average guy isn't going to understand this dynamic any more than Rob tried to tighten down on the top 3.5mm allen screw and they wouldn't budge. Way above his pay grade.

So FS's are going to be misadjusted all over the place...at bike shops and by owners...even coming from the factory just like Press Fit BB's are that can be tamed as well.

The issue however comes full circle back to the design which portends a philosophical argument. Should a design be released on a bicycle if 75% of those that work on the bike either in shops or at home aren't smart enough to make it quiet? Same applies to Press Fit which have been known to be fiddly for years but in the hands of a top wrench can be made dead quiet.

From an engineer's perspective, this is a bit too much to ask. Its like having mechanical valve tappets on a generic automobile. Yes, they are more efficient and prevent valve bounce at RPM's most never see, but they are very set up sensitive and require more maintenance. Hydraulic tappets therefore get the nod. So philosophy portends ultimately what design gets released for production. If engineers and management get this calculus wrong and much easier to get it wrong than right, then issues occur such as this. To use a Press Fit analogy, its why most here that love bicycles prefer a threaded BB 68mm shell with simple thread in Shimano cups and Shimano crank and mechanical preload. Simple, elegant and rock solid...that is unless a ham fisted wrench doesn't set the mechanical preload snug and they can rattle too.

We could dissect the FS design in great detail with pictures and captions. This btw occurred throughout the development phase of FS in boardrooms as the design evolved. This is how it goes for any new design passing along its critical path to development....CAD sections put up on the screen as the design is explained.

Dissection of the design would reveal by performing tolerance stack ups and adjustment variation that a rattle can be induced. In fact, there are 'several' places the FS can rattle based upon its design. Also, not discussed, the FS can rattle internally due to wear over time. There has been some unfounded speculation that the FS has a replacement life of 500 hours as suggested by Specialized. Unconfirmed or I have not seen this claim verified. Please post if somebody has Specialized formal position on this.

In summary, there have been multiple reports the FS rattles. That is irrevocable fact and not speculation. Some don't rattle at all, like OldTryguy who loves his. I would submit based upon reports here and elsewhere, they rattle easily...too easily in fact. But Gary, who is a solid bike guy has stated at his shop, FS rattles don't really exist.

Likely if the drumbeat of rattle continues on forums such as this, the design will be changed on some level...or discontinued completely like Specialized pulled their carbon OSBB aka narrow PF30 because it was a horrific design and Delrin bushings would become sloppy in carbon bores overtime. The way they would manage this with losing as little face with the public is to replace FS with a construction used similar to the more robust Domane where the headset pivots for some vertical displacement to attenuate road shock.

FS isn't perfect. Few designs are btw. We will see. Sadly, all too often in rush to market for better mousetrap oneupsmanship and short term profit windfall, its the customer who performs design verification testing which should have been more fully vetted in development. This is why the term caveat emptor came about. :)

"The question for example that I posed to Dan who he couldn't answer"

Give me a break.

You were the one being asked a simple follow up question to the post you made, that you either couldn't or wouldn't answer. Your reply was a series of snide remarks, counter questions, ad hominems and repeated attempts at poisoning the well.

Your social ineptitude defies belief.

Out of two of us Dan, I am the only one that has offered a technical explanation for why the FS rattles with some owners. And repudiation of what I wrote is to deny the truth...the FS does rattle for some and not for all.

Or...you are welcome to put forth your thoughts on why the FS rattles and technically criticize mine. But you haven't done that.

Or...you can further deny the truth and say the FS doesn't rattle. Maybe on your bike it doesn't for example and why you result to insulting my social aptitude as you put it.

For example, you are welcome to criticize my comments above about Rob tightening the grub screw as he puts it. But you didn't because after I explained it to you, you concede I am correct.

If your questions had any relevance to why the FS rattles, I would have been happy to respond. But they don't...sorry.

Here it is Dan. The floor is yours. No personal attacks now. Only technical conjecture. Explain to the forum why the FS rattles. Or deny that it does. Some believe the world is flat too. You can deny that as well.

You didn't offer anything but long winded, convoluted ego fluffing. You should get a room. Look at your post counter. 11439 posts and 428 quotes. That is 96% of the time ppl couldn't give a rats a** what you wrote or didnt even care to read it. You should ask you self why that is.

Now Dan, I warned you not to resort to personal attacks. Not cool bro. Come on, here is your chance to really shine and show the forum what great technical insight you possess which makes my conjecture look simplistic.
Come on, bro, I know its in you.

Dan, I am really itching to get into the weeds with the design. I know the highly pedigreed PE in the thread has the goods to participate. A compelling design frought with technical risk. Do it wrong and nothing but rattle.

What do you say? How about you start the first volley? Post a picture of the assembly or part of it and explain what you believe to be the technical risk in the context of rattle. Here's a hint. Interference fits are generally quiet. Slip fit without adequate preload, not so much. Ok, you have the ball. Lets see you run with it Racing Dan. Go brother go! I will see if I can hold your wheel as difficult as that will be. :)

Dude, just stop. No one cares.

No people care a lot. This is a big deal for those that bought the bike and are living with a rattle in spite of several returns to the lbs. You may not care but others do.
Perhaps we will get into the design a bit in an effort to help those struggling with this. I may have some simple ideas to solve the riddle...things I would try if presented with this challenge which aren't totally dissimilar to Press Fit BB.
A rattle is a resonant frequency born out of motion. If motion can be stopped, rattles can be cured. On a basic level, this is the purpose the headset tension screws. The issue is, when creating suitable headset tension, does this induce a rattle by decreased preload to other mating parts. This could be explored and simple solutions maybe available.

Btw, above is the same path engineers pursue when a condition is learned about in the field. Some intimately familiar with Specialized S-works bikes like the Tarmac, know that over time, Specialized continued to change the BB spec in an effort to tame it. They did this via a service bulletin release...like they did for example on cable routing when they released the procedure to cross the cables inside the down tube for a better flow to cable routing and less internal cable friction for less hysteresis. With the carbon OSBB, some will recall, in the end Specialized resorted to 'epoxy' of the Delrin cups because they were moving around so much. Then they canned the design. It should have never been released.

:roflmao2: The comedy just doesn't stop.

C4L

They care about their bikes. - Not you. Get the difference?*

*(please dont answer. It was a rhetoric question)

But I maybe the key to their solution.
I want to give you first crack at helping those in this thread with a rattling FS.
Why don't you start. A further hint is, you can glean jpegs from the assembly from the video in this thread and then mark them up with Powerpoint. That will get the ball rolling.
We all look forward to your technical expertise as you have kept it so carefully guarded. :p
Don't be shy now Dan. There are no dumb ideas, just dumb guys behind them. But certainly that doesn't apply to you! So please share.

So what you are saying is that the system is so complicated that the simple minded folks who work on bikes and the average consumer can't get it right? That is a clearly opinion being stated as fact. As the system becomes more common at the bike shops that actually sell Specialized products then these feeble minded bike mechanics, as you put it, will become more familiar and more skilled at the adjustments. Since you made the comparison to the auto industry I will do the same. Would you bring your Mercedes to a corner gas station and expect them to know the ins and outs of your vehicle? The average person would say no. That's what the dealership is for. As cars become more sophisticated due to consumer demand and government regulations the average person isn't be able to perform even the most basic of tasks without some special tools and experience. Why should bike be any different when it comes to the evolution of the design and mechanical aspects that it becomes more complex than what the average consumer can deal with?


As far as the drumbeat of problems, before I bought my bike I did some research and found the reports of noise to not be very common. Add to that that rarely does someone who is happy with a product go on the internet praising it. Well except maybe the fanboys for Glock, iPhones, and Campagnolo products. :lol:


Your assertion that the system was not properly tested before going to market is laughable at best. Do you have firsthand knowledge of this or is it merely more opinion based on your opinion of the system? I'm sure there are already some tweaks happening that the general public isn't privy to. Any good company will do that.


And to be honest, the last bit of highlighting is about the only thing worthwhile in this entire post of yours. The truth is that any system will never be fully tested until it gets in the hands of the average consumer. Engineers design products to a specific set of standards. The average consumer doesn't care about those standards, they want to push whatever they bought beyond those limits and then some. Only then will the true flaws be shown.


Despite your obvious disdain for the future shock system, in my opinion it is still too new to actually either praise or condemn it. Much like the Domane system you seem to prefer, I have serious concerns over the repeated flexing of a major component such as a carbon fiber frame. I would assume the lifespan on that frame would be less than a traditional frame design. Both have their shortcomings that is for sure.

:lol:

Yes, subscribed - this is hilarious!

Well, even though I find most of the things you wrote without foundation and I could pick anyone of them to respond to at length. A simple question you seem to struggle with. Too early to address a rattle problem?
You own a bike shop and sell Roubaixs.
Customer comes in and says his new bike he paid $4K for rattles.
You tell him, the design is still new even being on its second model year and not much you can do to help.
Learn it, love it live it...lol.

Why do they rattle? Ummm, well, geeee, bob's your uncle.

You said yourself that you could fix the noise. Why do you assume you are the only one who can?

I am not the only one...but maybe the only one here that can. Btw, I may not be able to fix all noises. I believe there are potentially more than one rattle emanation point which is more insidious to resolve. That doesn't even address the interworkings of the FS cartridge itself. We may start along this path. There are other engineers on the forum that may want to participate and posit their thoughts as well. It would start with pictures and maybe even somebody with a rattle that may want to experiment. I have some ideas. I wouldn't have gone to market with that design and at some point may explain why with pictures.

There are effectively 6 things I would initially try right off the bat. This thread has been sadly sullied with some nasty personal attacks. To atone and get more on track because the real purpose of the forum is to help one another, I will put something together. It will take a bit of time but will start when I get a chance. 6 things immediately come to mind to try.

I'm very happy that my FS bikes are both perfect. I still have faith coming from the engineering staff at McLaren Applied Technologies in the design.

Seems rather presumptuous for someone who hasn't actually taken one apart. I would assume someone who has a working knowledge of and hands on experience with the system would be better equipped to remedy any problem that may arise.

Maybe we should just stop feeding the troll and wait for it to post a "how to". Don´t hold your breath though :lol:

As you should because you are 2 for 2.
Perhaps you have advice for those whose FS rattles? Should they have faith too?
Whether they should or shouldn't, why don't you provide your assessment of how the design could be diagnosed if you believe you have the judgement to decide if the design is viable which you state.

Seriously Dan? You never really questioned my technical assertions...or challenged them.
You are welcome to post your list first. I would suggest all that believe they are mechanically inclined should post a list.

Im not challenging you. Im asking you to contribute the the community?

After all you may be the only one who knows how to do it ;)

You said "I am not the only one...but maybe the only one here that can. "

EDIT: Need to go. Ill be back in an hour. Looking forward to to your elaborate "how to". Thanks! :-)

OK...will do. I will post the list.
If there are any slightly mechanically inclined new Roubaix owners with an unsolvable rattle that want to participate once the list with pictures is put together, please post. You can decide if suggestions have merit. Its all pretty easy stuff. As it turns out, even sequence of assembly can affect preload of the cartridge within the steerer tube ID.

crickets...

I don't pretend to be an engineer on here......so I have no advice. Both my 2018 Roubaix have excelled as designed.

I am speaking from my experience. As to my judgement on the whether the design is viable, McLaren Applied Technologies, did extensive testing, and in my real world experience I find that to be the case.

I'm not solving the world's problems, but I will share my own ownership experiences. How many miles have you put on a FS bike?