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Quote:

Originally Posted by sirkaos (Post 20246400)

crickets...

Gonna be a while to put it together. You are welcome to post your list and pictures first as are all others.

Also looking for a Roubaix owner who isn't adverse to removing the shock and experimenting with a few things that involve no alteration to any parts.

C4L, I have just one problem with this whole discussion . . . I wish you would stop bringing up the S-Works OSBB fiasco. I was an S-Works rider / victim of that whole Specialized "there's nothing wrong with our BB a competent mechanic can't fix" fraud. Multiple attempts to fix using three or four types of Loctite and multiple sets of Delrin cups (all at Specialized's direction). Multiple trips to my nearest Specialized dealer for ineffective repairs -- labor charges NOT included in the warranty. And the relative sizes of the components changed depending on the ambient temperature so, in the unlikely event the OSBB became silent, a sudden cold front could bring back the creak! Eventually, Specialized's response to the next creak complaint became, "You must be doing it wrong." Their solution to the OSBB fiasco was to blame the customer and/or their LBS.

For years, I had been a fanatical Specialized fan. Never again.

(Yes, I own a Specialized bike. It's used on my indoor trainer and it has an English threaded BB. No future shock.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlashBazbo (Post 20246459)

I'm not going to promise that FB because its such an object lesson in corporate greed. As you know, Specialized had the carbon OSBB for years. Shameless greed at customer expense on their 'highest price flagship race bike'.

I may not buy another Specialized either because I have seen enough but I own two and both with BSA FWIW.
Certainly no future shock. Specialized arguably has screwed the pooch more than any manufacturer in spite of real talent at the company. Their saddles and shoes are excellent as well. And then they had the SCS fiasco as you put it. More greed to sell their proprietary SCS wheels. The bike community rejected this as well and Specialized once again with an ill fated commercial experiment had to relent due to lost and not gain in revenue due to lost sales.

I will tell you, each manufacturer has their tale of woe. Trek has their BB90 with carbon bores that is no peach but certainly better than the beleaguered carbon OSBB now replaced with BB30 which because of alloy bores is generally better than BB90.

Also, I believe the Venge VIAS rim brake fiasco ironically mirrors Future Shock. Ace mechanics could get the rim brake VIAS to brake pretty good, not great but acceptable. But the average Joe who took a shot at it failed miserably and the bike wouldn't flat stop. Disc brakes saved it of course. In fairness to Specialized, a little know fact is, the Venge was originally intended to have disc brakes. The rim brake version was in effect a kluge due to the UCI ban. All said tho, the aero rim brake Madone stops great. Aero rim brakes can be effective if designed right. The Venge VIAS rim brake bikes never were...in spite of a brake redesign as a running change.
You also may know about the current fork recall on the recently released endurance geometry Allez which is really a well designed bike. Roubaix geometry, low seat stays, rack eyelets and drumroll, BSA baby. An excellent mid range endurance geometry Aluminum road bike and worthy replacement for the Secteur which in effect was an Aluminum Roubaix. But one BIG problem. The forks are failing...all carbon fork including steerer. Specialized apparently didn't learn this lesson with their previous fork recall. When lightening strikes twice on the same component affecting subsequent model years, that is a big time lack of corporate discipline i.e. process control. Even if that discipline requires that every fork get x-rayed before being built into the bike if they don't have their arms around their process which is apparently the case.

So the Concept Store have been in touch and Specialized UK are sending a new futureshock. However they have told the store to fit and only use the soft spring which will allow the FS reset itself (whatever that means). When I questioned what happens if I want to use the hard or medium spring. The response was that the problem may reoccur. I now have to decide what I want to do. I really like the bike but I’m not sure I’m comfortable spending £6+k on a bike when the USP of the bike can’t be guaranteed to work as intended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonigan (Post 20246602)

Are you mechanical Moonigan? Do you want to learn how it goes together and perform an experiment to isolate the rattle?...presuming yours rattles? Let me know. I will post a procedure for troubleshooting it in a day or so.

No, change the spring to the lowest spring rate should not resolve the issue unless there is an inherent issue with the higher spring rates which nobody has reported. My sense is, much of the rattle is not internal to the future shock.
If you spent 6K on the bike, you tell them you want to test ride the bike after 4 different shocks with different spring rates installed. Taking it all apart is quite simple, including changing out the spring which you don't even have to remove the cartridge from the bike which is a single bolt as well..in fact easier with the cartridge attached.

Let me know. I would not accept the bike if you can only run on the lowest spring rate. Most prefer the medium to heaviest spring. Also, you can try a progressive spring from a Diverge in your Roubaix which is a linear springrate. Don't settle. Some owners don't have an issue so your challenge will the set up your bike so it doesn't rattle like theirs doesn't. The key is finding these ingredients which maybe resolved by tweaking the assembly process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Campag4life (Post 20246689)

Also, you can try a progressive spring from a Diverge in your Roubaix which is a linear springrate. Don't settle. Some owners don't have an issue so your challenge will the set up your bike so it doesn't rattle like theirs doesn't. The key is finding these ingredients which maybe resolved by tweaking the assembly process.

Does the Diverge spring actually fit in the Roubaix Frame? Has that been confirmed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Campag4life (Post 20246689)

The bike I have is the S-Works Diverge and not the Roubaix so my options are limited. I am OK with a spanner so can change/tweek things as necessary. Personally I think the issue is caused when the front takes a big hit when riding off road, say something like a pothole on an unpaved road taken at speed. Another way to visualise it is to imagine hitting a small kerb head on at speed (not that I ever do this). I think the force of this does something to the bottom part of the shock. You would never ever have the same kind of impact on the Roubaix unless you were riding it like a hooligan.

When it was replaced last time it worked perfectly until I hit a fast downhill section on the Strade Bianche. It was impossible to pick the best line due to the number of riders on the section and the front took a hard hit and has rattled ever since.

I thought about it over night and I'm going to ask for a refund which is a shame because when it works the Futureshock is superb and its going to be a real struggle to replace the bike.

P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slick Madone (Post 20246799)

Does the Diverge spring actually fit in the Roubaix Frame? Has that been confirmed?

I have heard it does but can't confirm. Would be a real easy trial however. Simply ask the dealer for a spring and try.
You may ask why the Diverge would have a progressive spring rate versus the Roubaix. It is due to what Moonigan wrote. Statistically riding off road, a rider and bike are going to take bigger hits. A progressive shock increases spring rate based upon displacement aka depression of the cartridge. A progressive shock for the same initial travel would therefore be more difficult to bottom on larger hits but not compromise ride quality on smoother riding off road or on. The shock maybe sensitive to big strikes which may in fact be the root cause of all the complaints...including bikes that are test ridden at the lbs. Once a shock takes a big hit...hits a curb at speed, there is a level of permanent deformation inside the shock that increases clearance between sliding surfaces which can create a rattle. Completely unconfirmed but easy to evaluate. I am sure on some level with big enough impacts the shock can be ruined. Question is, how high is this margin?..and does it trend on failure of the frame and the rider crashing. Maybe or maybe not. Also repeated big hits may degrade the shock on some level. The engineers that designed it understand where this threshold is but not the lay public floundering to understand why their bike rattles in the front end.

Moonigan suggested that he believes the internals of the shock degrade on some level after a big hit...or maybe repeated big hits, which is possible. What belies logic however is the dealer recommending a lower spring rate because if anything this is directionally opposite to what is desired. Bigger hits with a higher spring rate are friendlier to shock internals because bottoming velocity and stress is lower which can deform metal.

The way to test the contribution of the shock itself to any clunk or rattle is by replacing it. There is no reason that this can't be done in 5 minutes at any bike shop. Any floor model Roubaix or Diverge the shock can be removed in 2 minutes. The headset and preload do not have to be disturbed to test a replacement shock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Campag4life (Post 20245540)

2018Roubaix, in response to your questions in bold above based upon Rob's post....Rob shows a lack of understanding that should be explained about the design.

I have made the repeated point, the design is poor because its sensitive to rattle which is clearly true based upon all the anecdotal accounts. Press Fit as also mentioned is exactly the same. Some rattle and some don't. And the question was asked, if some don't rattle, is the design bad? Answer is, not for them. :)

What separates those that rattle based upon a sensitive design? which includes both FS and Press Fit?
1. Tolerance stack up of how individual parts fit together
2. How the bike is assembled.

Same for FS and Press Fit.

Further, I would say without a controlled experiment which would have a level of error in it anyway, that the 'majority'...perhaps the vast majority of both FS and Press Fit can be quieted with proper adjustment. Problem is, finding a guy to adjust it properly and who understands the design. Same for Press Fit. I have quieted countless Press Fit BB's that the local bike shop couldn't for friends as most race bikes are now Press Fit of various types.

Take Rob's comments. He tried to 'tighten down grub screws' but couldn't. The top screws are not adjustment screws. They are lock screws to the small dia and pitch allen set screws underneath that adjust the collar preload.
They won't budge. They need to be loosened. The question for example that I posed to Dan who he couldn't answer as to why this design came about is...if you have a lock screw on top of a set screw that is relatively unrestrained other than prevailing torque due to preload, why should the top lock screw break away from the set screw when unscrewing the lock screw? Ans: Because thread pitch is different. For the same screw rotation the top screw with courser pitch will unthread at a faster rate than the lower less restrained set screw. What is the inherent weakness in this design? Because tightening the top lock screw will inherently bias torque of the bottom screw because the bottom set screw that determines headset preload is only restrained by preload.

That average guy isn't going to understand this dynamic any more than Rob tried to tighten down on the top 3.5mm allen screw and they wouldn't budge. Way above his pay grade.

So FS's are going to be misadjusted all over the place...at bike shops and by owners...even coming from the factory just like Press Fit BB's are that can be tamed as well.

The issue however comes full circle back to the design which portends a philosophical argument. Should a design be released on a bicycle if 75% of those that work on the bike either in shops or at home aren't smart enough to make it quiet? Same applies to Press Fit which have been known to be fiddly for years but in the hands of a top wrench can be made dead quiet.

From an engineer's perspective, this is a bit too much to ask. Its like having mechanical valve tappets on a generic automobile. Yes, they are more efficient and prevent valve bounce at RPM's most never see, but they are very set up sensitive and require more maintenance. Hydraulic tappets therefore get the nod. So philosophy portends ultimately what design gets released for production. If engineers and management get this calculus wrong and much easier to get it wrong than right, then issues occur such as this. To use a Press Fit analogy, its why most here that love bicycles prefer a threaded BB 68mm shell with simple thread in Shimano cups and Shimano crank and mechanical preload. Simple, elegant and rock solid...that is unless a ham fisted wrench doesn't set the mechanical preload snug and they can rattle too.

We could dissect the FS design in great detail with pictures and captions. This btw occurred throughout the development phase of FS in boardrooms as the design evolved. This is how it goes for any new design passing along its critical path to development....CAD sections put up on the screen as the design is explained.

Dissection of the design would reveal by performing tolerance stack ups and adjustment variation that a rattle can be induced. In fact, there are 'several' places the FS can rattle based upon its design. Also, not discussed, the FS can rattle internally due to wear over time. There has been some unfounded speculation that the FS has a replacement life of 500 hours as suggested by Specialized. Unconfirmed or I have not seen this claim verified. Please post if somebody has Specialized formal position on this.

In summary, there have been multiple reports the FS rattles. That is irrevocable fact and not speculation. Some don't rattle at all, like OldTryguy who loves his. I would submit based upon reports here and elsewhere, they rattle easily...too easily in fact. But Gary, who is a solid bike guy has stated at his shop, FS rattles don't really exist.

Likely if the drumbeat of rattle continues on forums such as this, the design will be changed on some level...or discontinued completely like Specialized pulled their carbon OSBB aka narrow PF30 because it was a horrific design and Delrin bushings would become sloppy in carbon bores overtime. The way they would manage this with losing as little face with the public is to replace FS with a construction used similar to the more robust Domane where the headset pivots for some vertical displacement to attenuate road shock.

FS isn't perfect. Few designs are btw. We will see. Sadly, all too often in rush to market for better mousetrap oneupsmanship and short term profit windfall, its the customer who performs design verification testing which should have been more fully vetted in development. This is why the term caveat emptor came about. :)

Agreed, nothing is perfect. I've enjoyed the insights by all on this.

However, I want to go back to my questions on the rattling and the fact the poster was able to silence the rattling with his thumb. I want to know if mine ever develops this issue what have owners done to fix the issue.

If someone has a FS and the plastic spacer cap on the top of the headset, covering the stem collar, rattles, what could someone do to stop it from rattling? Could it be something as simple as a 10 cent piece of double sided tap under the cap to stick it to the stem collar as the rubber boot isn't pushing down with enough force to stop if from rattling? Just hypothesizing, could it be the rubber boot is not applying enough downward pressure to hold the cap solidly? Might this explain why some have the rattling and others don't as some have adding spacers to increase the stack?

If you have had this rattle issue, what have you done to fix it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2018Roubaix (Post 20247917)

Agreed, nothing is perfect. I've enjoyed the insights by all on this.

However, I want to go back to my questions on the rattling and the fact the poster was able to silence the rattling with his thumb. I want to know if mine ever develops this issue what have owners done to fix the issue.

If someone has a FS and the plastic spacer cap on the top of the headset, covering the stem collar, rattles, what could someone do to stop it from rattling? Could it be something as simple as a 10 cent piece of double sided tap under the cap to stick it to the stem collar as the rubber boot isn't pushing down with enough force to stop if from rattling? Just hypothesizing, could it be the rubber boot is not applying enough downward pressure to hold the cap solidly? Might this explain why some have the rattling and others don't as some have adding spacers to increase the stack?

If you have had this rattle issue, what have you done to fix it?

You can ask these hypotheticals and you are about to learn a lot more about what options you have because I am putting together the troubleshooting sequence right now...about 1/2 complete and then will post with pictures. This will address potential rattle of the decorative FS clamp cover underneath the stem.

The answer to your good question in bold above that shows insight on your part is Yes. To best determine contribution of the decorative FS clamp cap, it can be removed and the bike ridden to see what its contribution to rattle is.

Do you have any rattle presently, and if so are you mechanically inclined enough to take yours apart if I walk you through it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Campag4life (Post 20247934)

I do most of my own maintenance, change cranks, etc. Luckily, mine doesn't rattle.

Agree with you on the first troubleshooting steps - minimization. Remove the non-functional parts (top cap as it does nothing but cover a hole, rubber boot, decorative cap over stem bolt, and then see if noises stop.

If there is still a noise, then you focus on cable rattles, then the pre-load on the fork, and finally the FS cartridge. The spring being the first target in the FS in case of spring relaxation from repeated hard compression.

Bike rattles and squeaks are tough as they travel so well.

Bike rattles and squeaks can be solved by a scientific method and process of elimination. My hope is this thread will become a beacon that FS owners can use to troubleshoot their new Roubaix and Diverges.

For example, because owners and bike shops haven't really come forward with any sort of fixes associated with this issue, it isn't clear whether the interworkings of the future shock are at the core of vast majority of rattles and clunks..OR...it is based upon the assembly of parts external to the FS cartridge. With a trouble shooting method, this can be determined from the start. This should be the starting point, in particular based upon what Moonigan wrote...its his cartridge that clunks or rattles.

What we don't at this point, but may learn in ensuing months by adhering to a troubleshooting roadmap is...is the canister responsible for 90-100% or the rattles....OR....only a contributor and the attachment of the cartridge and related external hardware is a contributor as well. The answer to this riddle will become more clear as frustrated Roubaix owners come to this thread seeking solutions. Unfortunately, many that own a FS Roubaix aren't mechanically inclined, lean on the bike shop to fix their issue and when they fail, owners are frustrated. Bike shops are A to Z on the competency scale because it takes time to fix an issue such as this and technical expertise.

So we should learn a lot in the next 6 months as Roubaix owners come to this thread if they have a rattle they can't solve...or don't know where to start.

We may learn that the single underlying reason a FS Roubaix rattles is because it takes a 'big hit' which deforms hardware internal to the FS canister...metal deforms fractionally losing some level of spring preload internal to the shock which liberates clearance and therefore motion aka metal on metal rattle. I believe this will become known. Specialized for example may already know why the FS is sensitive to rattle and working on a fix right now.

And lastly should be noted, many FS Roubaixs don't rattle...perhaps the vast majority don't...eerily like Press Fit BB's. ;)

Hi everyone. Getting a lot of complaints about this thread regarding the bickering back and forth. Im going to close it for a while to give everyone a break for a little while to take a breather. I'll open it back up later.