A frightening look inside of a BMC Road Machine RM01
#152
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I agree that a manufacturer can't "inspect quality in" to the products they manufacture, but they can certainly "inspect quality in" to the stream of finished products actually released into the supply stream, simply by weeding out all the ones that don't meet the particular quality standard.
Looked at from 1000' up, quality control and manufacturing processes are both necessary steps to achieve the targeted goal(s).
There is a mind-set that insists on their separation.
There is a mind-set that insists on their separation.
Last edited by SethAZ; 12-14-17 at 05:28 PM.
#153
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#154
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It just seems that peoples views are extremely varied on what to me seems straight forward.
That BMC was poorly made!
It is that simple.
It doesn't matter if it performed its job, didn't kill/maim anyone etc.
In my mind, at that price point, construction of that "quality" is unacceptable.
#155
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For what it's worth, I broke half a pair of Swix Star ski poles last year. Landed on it in a crash, and it snapped in two. It's 100 % carbon. Curious after reading this thread, I just peered into both halfs, the interior looks smooth and flawless.
(I still have them because the warranty covers acts of stupidity, I'm going back to the town I bought them in this weekend.)
(I still have them because the warranty covers acts of stupidity, I'm going back to the town I bought them in this weekend.)
#156
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I don't think comprehension is the problem.
It just seems that peoples views are extremely varied on what to me seems straight forward.
That BMC was poorly made!
It is that simple.
It doesn't matter if it performed its job, didn't kill/maim anyone etc.
In my mind, at that price point, construction of that "quality" is unacceptable.
It just seems that peoples views are extremely varied on what to me seems straight forward.
That BMC was poorly made!
It is that simple.
It doesn't matter if it performed its job, didn't kill/maim anyone etc.
In my mind, at that price point, construction of that "quality" is unacceptable.
#158
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Lastly: "Qull stems rely on just one bolt to hold the bars in place (attached to the fork - i.e. steering column). If it snaps, you instantly loose control of the bike." Funny, in the Mechanics Forum you hear of people who cannot budge their stems after removing the bolt completely. Now, I ride with well greased quills and wedges and I still have to sometimes tap the bolt down to free the wedge. So in reality, even if this lightly loaded bolt does break, there is a very good chance that nothing will happen at all.
Ben
Ben
With threadless stems, probability of two bolts breaking at the same time is very small. That is because they usually break from fatigue (just like quill a stem bolt) - unless they break when screwing them in by too much torque. Quill stem bolts do break. I've had it happen (at a low speed fortunately). And I'm not the only one.
#159
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Yes, apart from (IMO) a greater risk of a stem failing, you often get it stuck.
With threadless stems, probability of two bolts breaking at the same time is very small. That is because they usually break from fatigue (just like quill a stem bolt) - unless they break when screwing them in by too much torque. Quill stem bolts do break. I've had it happen (at a low speed fortunately). And I'm not the only one.
With threadless stems, probability of two bolts breaking at the same time is very small. That is because they usually break from fatigue (just like quill a stem bolt) - unless they break when screwing them in by too much torque. Quill stem bolts do break. I've had it happen (at a low speed fortunately). And I'm not the only one.
#160
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And yes - choosing lightweight components can be a risk. But there are not-lightweight threadless forks, bars and stems.
#161
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I don't think comprehension is the problem.
It just seems that peoples views are extremely varied on what to me seems straight forward.
That BMC was poorly made!
It is that simple.
It doesn't matter if it performed its job, didn't kill/maim anyone etc.
In my mind, at that price point, construction of that "quality" is unacceptable.
It just seems that peoples views are extremely varied on what to me seems straight forward.
That BMC was poorly made!
It is that simple.
It doesn't matter if it performed its job, didn't kill/maim anyone etc.
In my mind, at that price point, construction of that "quality" is unacceptable.
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nine mile skid on a ten mile ride
nine mile skid on a ten mile ride
#162
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I think that a lot of what was missing earlier in this thread was also a recognition that product design necessarily incorporates some sort of understanding of the manufacturing processes that will be used to produce that product. If a particular feature is known to be difficult (or impossible) to manufacture in its ideal form, a designer can attempt to design a solution that is not the ideal solution, but which results in the feature at acceptable cost and quality, etc. Thus we don't know that the ugly seat stay/seat tube joint featured at one point in the video is in fact evidence of failed design and manufacturing, or simply design that factored in the recognition that that joint would be difficult to achieve in perfect form, so included an imperfect (and ugly on film) solution which nevertheless achieved the objectives.
As an architect, I work with designers who create some really cool looking spaces. From time to time, in order to achieve some "wow" effect, they'll throw in some architectural perversity like a floating stair, invisible door, or flaming waterfall. In building construction, such "magic tricks" don't usually result in the kind of sausage work we've been talking about here, but too often they do come at the expense of more important things like serviceability and harmonious, meaningful arrangements, and that's when I want to punch the designer.
(By the way, for sausage work in buildings, nothing beats prewar high-rises, with their slapdash terra cotta fire walls.)
#163
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...
I think that a lot of what was missing earlier in this thread was also a recognition that product design necessarily incorporates some sort of understanding of the manufacturing processes that will be used to produce that product. If a particular feature is known to be difficult (or impossible) to manufacture in its ideal form, a designer can attempt to design a solution that is not the ideal solution, but which results in the feature at acceptable cost and quality, etc. Thus we don't know that the ugly seat stay/seat tube joint featured at one point in the video is in fact evidence of failed design and manufacturing, or simply design that factored in the recognition that that joint would be difficult to achieve in perfect form, so included an imperfect (and ugly on film) solution which nevertheless achieved the objectives.
I think that a lot of what was missing earlier in this thread was also a recognition that product design necessarily incorporates some sort of understanding of the manufacturing processes that will be used to produce that product. If a particular feature is known to be difficult (or impossible) to manufacture in its ideal form, a designer can attempt to design a solution that is not the ideal solution, but which results in the feature at acceptable cost and quality, etc. Thus we don't know that the ugly seat stay/seat tube joint featured at one point in the video is in fact evidence of failed design and manufacturing, or simply design that factored in the recognition that that joint would be difficult to achieve in perfect form, so included an imperfect (and ugly on film) solution which nevertheless achieved the objectives.
I built fiberglass boats for several outfits including several custom boats and was an engineer in several design offices for large steel and fiberglass fishing boats and yachts.
Ben
#165
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Summed up well. Good engineering is not just designing the "best" but designing the best that can be built with what's available by the outfit that is going to build it. Good engineering often means wandering the shop floor and looking at the build process. Supervisors didn't like this and I couldn't always do it, but I tried to talk to the worker who was going to actually make the item/project I was designing. (Or his immediate manager who used to crawl into that space himself.)
I built fiberglass boats for several outfits including several custom boats and was an engineer in several design offices for large steel and fiberglass fishing boats and yachts.
Ben
I built fiberglass boats for several outfits including several custom boats and was an engineer in several design offices for large steel and fiberglass fishing boats and yachts.
Ben
Last edited by SethAZ; 12-15-17 at 10:49 AM.
#166
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Thus we don't know that the ugly seat stay/seat tube joint featured at one point in the video is in fact evidence of failed design and manufacturing, or simply design that factored in the recognition that that joint would be difficult to achieve in perfect form, so included an imperfect (and ugly on film) solution which nevertheless achieved the objectives.
#167
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I'm pretty sure the manufacturing processes have changed a lot in the last six years. It would be interesting to see a 2017 BMC cut apart and compared with this 2011-era frame to see how things look now.
If I were in the market for a carbon bike I'm not sure this video would influence me one way or another. I've ridden with a local guy here a few times who rides a very nice-looking BMC and neither of us has ever noticed any hint or whiff of trouble with it. I suspect they're actually fine, this ugly 2011-era sample notwithstanding.
BMC are still in business, and probably infinitely more people have direct experience riding with and on them than have seen this video. I think the correlation between those two facts is probably quite meaningful.
#168
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the the manufacturing process hasn't changed much, but that wasn't the problem here anyway. The problems here were in the execution of process(and some design issues).
#170
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I spent some time reading BMC's marketing pages and reviews for this frame.
They use "TTC (Tuned Compliance Concept) design and ISC (Integrated Skeleton Concept)". Whereby they claim to layer the fiber in different directions and thicknesses to get a ride that is compliant and stiff in the right places.
One review claimed that the frame was less expensive than the competition and was right at the UCI weight limits.
Given the video I can see how the folds near the seattube and stays could cause flex. It looks like the manufacturer got the flex and weight where they wanted it and then said, "good enough" to meet the price point.
They use "TTC (Tuned Compliance Concept) design and ISC (Integrated Skeleton Concept)". Whereby they claim to layer the fiber in different directions and thicknesses to get a ride that is compliant and stiff in the right places.
One review claimed that the frame was less expensive than the competition and was right at the UCI weight limits.
Given the video I can see how the folds near the seattube and stays could cause flex. It looks like the manufacturer got the flex and weight where they wanted it and then said, "good enough" to meet the price point.
#171
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I spent some time reading BMC's marketing pages and reviews for this frame.
They use "TTC (Tuned Compliance Concept) design and ISC (Integrated Skeleton Concept)". Whereby they claim to layer the fiber in different directions and thicknesses to get a ride that is compliant and stiff in the right places.
They use "TTC (Tuned Compliance Concept) design and ISC (Integrated Skeleton Concept)". Whereby they claim to layer the fiber in different directions and thicknesses to get a ride that is compliant and stiff in the right places.
#172
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#173
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Sure, a manufacturer will establish it's own specifications for each quality, and there are industry standards, but others will look for something more ideal, meeting more stringent specifications or having additional qualities, which a manufacturer's specs may fail to meet or address.
No, we can't blame a manufacturer if their specs don't meet our own. I'd even go so far as to say we shouldn't worry too much about whether they meet their own, since we have no control over that, but we might worry more about our own qualities, and whether we meet our own specs.
#174
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I really like the ride quality of my 2014 SLR01. Surprised to see the apparently lack of QC at BMC. I wonder if they will read/respond to this type of feedback. Eventually I'll switch out this frame but not sure with what...love the idea of Ti but need a climbing bike for those long days.
Last edited by Chandne; 12-18-17 at 04:00 PM.
#175
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If you all knew what your houses looked like behind the drywall........