105's And Cross Chaining
12-01-18, 08:13 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
105's And Cross Chaining
I've been cycling quite seriously for the last 1 1/2 yrs on a 29er and have just bought my 1st more road / drop bar bike since I was a kid with 105's and had my 1st outing on it last night.
I get a lot of noise from the chain on the front derailleur if I'm on the small cog at the front and try changing down to the smaller cogs / higher gears on the cassette. I rang the shop I bought it from and they said that's totally normal and a bit of a Shimano thing on road bikes and means you're not on the correct cog on the front derailleurs.
Whilst I appreciate cross chaining is not good over a pre-longed period, I was surprised that it was over the 3 high gears on the cassette ... can I / should I index it so it doesn't happen or is that just going to destroy parts on the bike if I do or is part of the cross chaining a bit of scaremongering?
In quite a dilemma as the riding we do it'd be an awful lot easier to keep it on the small chain ring if I had the full range of gears on the cassette and is really strange coming from an MTB where I virtually never changed the front cog at all.
I get a lot of noise from the chain on the front derailleur if I'm on the small cog at the front and try changing down to the smaller cogs / higher gears on the cassette. I rang the shop I bought it from and they said that's totally normal and a bit of a Shimano thing on road bikes and means you're not on the correct cog on the front derailleurs.
Whilst I appreciate cross chaining is not good over a pre-longed period, I was surprised that it was over the 3 high gears on the cassette ... can I / should I index it so it doesn't happen or is that just going to destroy parts on the bike if I do or is part of the cross chaining a bit of scaremongering?
In quite a dilemma as the riding we do it'd be an awful lot easier to keep it on the small chain ring if I had the full range of gears on the cassette and is really strange coming from an MTB where I virtually never changed the front cog at all.
12-01-18, 08:49 PM
#2
Senior Member
Are you taking advantage of the trim? You ahould be able to move tne derailleur outward slightly via tne trim shift the shifter has, which is half shift breween low gear and shifting to the big ring.Beyond that, try adding a bit more cable tension. That may give you a couple more gears on the lowside (although you may then get rubbing on the otherside when crosschained between big in front and back)
Last edited by DOS; 12-01-18 at 11:38 PM.
12-01-18, 10:31 PM
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You might also try riding the large chainring and lower gears on the cassette. My first rode bike, also 105, with its chain I rode 3500 miles in small chainring/ 4 smallest cogs) This new chain i put on few months ago, Ive decided id try riding in large chainring and 4 largest cogs most of the time, works for my legs and the terrain around here) the gearing feels about the same but with a bit more leverage and power if i can keep my cadence up. Also parts wear may be lessened using more teeth. But trim adjustment is good idea. ive played with that before and it eliminated or at least lessened the chain rub. Mechanics have told me that youll have some play at either end is normal depending on how its adjusted.
12-02-18, 12:29 AM
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You should be able to get better adjustment,
but in terms of cross chaining wearing things out, it's not an issue with modern stuff-
maybe a little noise but riding all year on big/big or small/small will cause no problems.
but in terms of cross chaining wearing things out, it's not an issue with modern stuff-
maybe a little noise but riding all year on big/big or small/small will cause no problems.
12-02-18, 03:31 AM
#5
Pizzaiolo Americano
I am a Mountain biker too so the trim thing was new to me. If set up correctly AND the rider is using the trim function correctly, the noise should be minimal at best. My 8000 equipped bike is pretty much silent unless severely cross chained and there is no reason to ride it like that.
12-02-18, 04:16 AM
#6
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@DOS is correct.
Ask the shop or look up how to trim the derailleur. It can be moved slightly by using the shifters to avoid some of that noise.
Ask the shop or look up how to trim the derailleur. It can be moved slightly by using the shifters to avoid some of that noise.
12-02-18, 11:52 AM
#7
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Thread Starter
I spent some time messing with it today following these comments and also looked up what the trim was which I didn't realise was on there ... am I right the trim only works one way ie if you're on the large cog and half press the lever which would change it to the small ring it goes part way towards the small ring and stops the noise if you're in the large cog on the rear ... does it work the other way as well ie moving it part of the way from the small towards the large without changing gear??
I managed to make some adjustment but I'm still getting it quite badly when small front and then on the 3rd from smallest on the rear ... would be pretty unusable if you tried to go to the smallest at the back.
I managed to make some adjustment but I'm still getting it quite badly when small front and then on the 3rd from smallest on the rear ... would be pretty unusable if you tried to go to the smallest at the back.
12-02-18, 12:38 PM
#8
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I spent some time messing with it today following these comments and also looked up what the trim was which I didn't realise was on there ... am I right the trim only works one way ie if you're on the large cog and half press the lever which would change it to the small ring it goes part way towards the small ring and stops the noise if you're in the large cog on the rear ... does it work the other way as well ie moving it part of the way from the small towards the large without changing gear??
I managed to make some adjustment but I'm still getting it quite badly when small front and then on the 3rd from smallest on the rear ... would be pretty unusable if you tried to go to the smallest at the back.
I managed to make some adjustment but I'm still getting it quite badly when small front and then on the 3rd from smallest on the rear ... would be pretty unusable if you tried to go to the smallest at the back.
12-02-18, 12:47 PM
#9
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I have found with Shimano cranksets, that the chain brushing the larger chainring when cross-chained can cause the chain to make contact with the pins designed to pick the chain up for easy front shifts and the net effect is a very rough feel. With 7-speeds the small-small is unusable. With my 9-speed, the last two small. Doesn't surprise me at all that you are seeing the last three (assuming you are running 10 or 11-speed). You may find that trimming your front derailleur for more rub keeps the chain away from the pins and actually runs smoother.
Edit: I have never moved past old-fashioned friction shifting so I have no idea how you trim your derailleur as I suggested with brifters.
Ben
Edit: I have never moved past old-fashioned friction shifting so I have no idea how you trim your derailleur as I suggested with brifters.
Ben
Last edited by 79pmooney; 12-02-18 at 12:53 PM.
12-02-18, 09:32 PM
#10
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For 105(5800), the front dérailleur has 4 positions or trims. There are 2 for the small front ring and 2 for the large. It can be difficult to setup correctly. After fiddling with the cable tensions and screw position settings, I was able to eliminate most but not all chain rub in the various gear combinations. I also found that I had to tweak the height and rotation of the dérailleur as it was not done properly at the shop. Is the noise from the chain rubbing the side of the dérailleur cage or the bottom? If its the latter, it could also be too many links in the chain. I call BS on the shop claiming that's a normal Shimano thing. I say maybe when you are big-big or small-small but that is it.
12-02-18, 09:38 PM
#11
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Yet another reason for friction shifting's infinite trimming abilities.
Jon
Jon
12-03-18, 09:17 AM
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I recently built up a bike with 105 5800, and it was my first bike build sine the 1990's, when I worked in a shop. The trim on the front derailleur was also new to me, but it works quite nicely.
The trick with the front derailleur is to pre-tension the cable a bit before you tighten down the pinch bolt on to the cable. Give yourself some room to go either way with the barrel adjuster (assuming you have one somewhere in your front shift cable set up), and stick a 4 mm allen wrench in to the gap by the front derailleur spring to hold the derailleur open a bit. Then pull the slack out of the cable and tighten down the pinch bolt. Then remove the wrench, obviously.
I tried this, and was amazed by how great the 105 drivetrain worked right out of the box. Everything just worked perfectly right away. And I can always get a good chain line using the trim on the front brifter.
You may also want to check your limit screws to make sure the derailleur has the right range of motion. But most bike shops set this up correctly.
Good luck!
The trick with the front derailleur is to pre-tension the cable a bit before you tighten down the pinch bolt on to the cable. Give yourself some room to go either way with the barrel adjuster (assuming you have one somewhere in your front shift cable set up), and stick a 4 mm allen wrench in to the gap by the front derailleur spring to hold the derailleur open a bit. Then pull the slack out of the cable and tighten down the pinch bolt. Then remove the wrench, obviously.
I tried this, and was amazed by how great the 105 drivetrain worked right out of the box. Everything just worked perfectly right away. And I can always get a good chain line using the trim on the front brifter.
You may also want to check your limit screws to make sure the derailleur has the right range of motion. But most bike shops set this up correctly.
Good luck!
Last edited by HarborBandS; 12-03-18 at 09:21 AM.
12-03-18, 10:05 AM
#13
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My 5800 FD needs a surprising amount of pre-tension to avoid that problem. Used a "4th hand" tool last time.
12-03-18, 04:01 PM
#14
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Thread Starter
I recently built up a bike with 105 5800, and it was my first bike build sine the 1990's, when I worked in a shop. The trim on the front derailleur was also new to me, but it works quite nicely.
The trick with the front derailleur is to pre-tension the cable a bit before you tighten down the pinch bolt on to the cable. Give yourself some room to go either way with the barrel adjuster (assuming you have one somewhere in your front shift cable set up), and stick a 4 mm allen wrench in to the gap by the front derailleur spring to hold the derailleur open a bit. Then pull the slack out of the cable and tighten down the pinch bolt. Then remove the wrench, obviously.
I tried this, and was amazed by how great the 105 drivetrain worked right out of the box. Everything just worked perfectly right away. And I can always get a good chain line using the trim on the front brifter.
You may also want to check your limit screws to make sure the derailleur has the right range of motion. But most bike shops set this up correctly.
Good luck!
The trick with the front derailleur is to pre-tension the cable a bit before you tighten down the pinch bolt on to the cable. Give yourself some room to go either way with the barrel adjuster (assuming you have one somewhere in your front shift cable set up), and stick a 4 mm allen wrench in to the gap by the front derailleur spring to hold the derailleur open a bit. Then pull the slack out of the cable and tighten down the pinch bolt. Then remove the wrench, obviously.
I tried this, and was amazed by how great the 105 drivetrain worked right out of the box. Everything just worked perfectly right away. And I can always get a good chain line using the trim on the front brifter.
You may also want to check your limit screws to make sure the derailleur has the right range of motion. But most bike shops set this up correctly.
Good luck!
Just for clarity I have now realised and made sure I know how to use them but there are the 4 different positions using the trim and in case it makes a difference they're the r7000's.
12-03-18, 04:24 PM
#15
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Thread Starter
Actually another query as well, when setting the high and low screws, I'm guessing it should be when it's in the fully outer and inner positions rather than the more inner "trimmed" positions.
12-03-18, 08:05 PM
#16
Senior Member
Correct. Also, 7000 has a bolt on the derailleur itself for adjusting cable tension, which is new design as compared to 5800.Adjusting that may hlep with your rubbing issue.
12-04-18, 03:40 AM
#17
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Thread Starter
That sounds awful
I think part of the issue is there wasn't enough tension and on the small chainring there was no difference in position if it was trimmed or not so have tightened that up a bit (I wish it was more audible / noticeable when moving trim positions especially on the small chainring) but I still can't get it so there's no rub at all.
I've set it so it's very slight on all the extremes (worst on small - small still by a long way) although I'm not convinced this is right as surely I shouldn't be getting any on large front / small rear
I just spoke to someone at another shop and they re-iterated what the place bought it from said and if you're on the small chainring you shouldn't be using the smallest 4 on the cassette which seems a bit Mickey Mouse???
12-04-18, 04:49 AM
#18
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Thread Starter
Also just found it's listed on Page 4 of Shimano's manual
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RAFD001-02-ENG.pdf
Must admit coming from a 29er with a 10 speed Sram X7 where you can go across the range of gears on either chainring with no need to arse around with trim am going to find this a complete faff constantly having to monitor which gear you're in and whether you need trim or not in comparison to something so simple.
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RAFD001-02-ENG.pdf
Must admit coming from a 29er with a 10 speed Sram X7 where you can go across the range of gears on either chainring with no need to arse around with trim am going to find this a complete faff constantly having to monitor which gear you're in and whether you need trim or not in comparison to something so simple.
12-04-18, 05:18 AM
#19
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Also just found it's listed on Page 4 of Shimano's manual
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RAFD001-02-ENG.pdf
Must admit coming from a 29er with a 10 speed Sram X7 where you can go across the range of gears on either chainring with no need to arse around with trim am going to find this a complete faff constantly having to monitor which gear you're in and whether you need trim or not in comparison to something.
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RAFD001-02-ENG.pdf
Must admit coming from a 29er with a 10 speed Sram X7 where you can go across the range of gears on either chainring with no need to arse around with trim am going to find this a complete faff constantly having to monitor which gear you're in and whether you need trim or not in comparison to something.
You might also look at this. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html. The reason cross chaining is unnecessary and ill advised is the gear you are in when using small ring and the smallest three cogs is same gear you get on an 11 speed cassette using say a 50t big ring and about the 16,17 an 19t cog (so middle of the casette). While I never worried about wear and tear some say cross chaining causes, using gears in a manner that minimizes cross chaining will give you same gears with less drag and a smoother feel to your pedaling. In other words, even if you eliminate the rub, you don’t gain anything in terms of gear options and actually sacrifice some performance by chosing to cross chain. So is it really faff to understand how to use your equipment to get the most performance benefit from it?
12-04-18, 08:32 AM
#20
Senior Member
With normal length chainstays, i.e. a 700c wheel at least, it should be no issue to achieve noiseless running using 9-10 of the cogs on the cassette and either chainring without trimming. With the trim function, you can get the last one or two silently as well. If you are relatively new to adjusting bike derailleurs in general, a Shimano 11 speed FD is not the best place to start. While there isn't anything earth-shatteringly different about them, they are different enough to trip up even seasoned mechanics it seems.
If you don't have some sort of inline barrel adjuster installed to help with cable tension for the front derailleur, I highly suggest adding one before spending more time on this problem. Chain rub using the big/small combo is a clear indication that you do not have enough cable tension. All of your other settings are going to be compromised as a result.
If you don't have some sort of inline barrel adjuster installed to help with cable tension for the front derailleur, I highly suggest adding one before spending more time on this problem. Chain rub using the big/small combo is a clear indication that you do not have enough cable tension. All of your other settings are going to be compromised as a result.
12-04-18, 09:37 AM
#21
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I've had another look at it tonight but didn't quite understand what you meant ..... I'm guessing I wedge the allen wrench in to open up the derailleur which has the effect of moving it more to the outer side so after I've tightened the pinch bolt and removed the wrench it'll make the cable slack when on the inner chainring ... have I got that right???
12-04-18, 11:03 AM
#22
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Must admit coming from a 29er with a 10 speed Sram X7 where you can go across the range of gears on either chainring with no need to arse around with trim am going to find this a complete faff constantly having to monitor which gear you're in and whether you need trim or not in comparison to something so simple.
If you hear the chain rub a little then trim. Forget about it otherwise. That's all. It isn't a big deal.
Di2 trims automatically, by itself. It's a non issue with Di2.
-Tim-
12-07-18, 07:25 PM
#23
Senior Member
So took note of how my bikes work on my last two rides when cross chained in the small/small combo.
— I have 6800 on my Cannondale CAAD10 with SRAM Red22 cranks. No rubbing when in trim position all the way down to 11t cog. The chain does get noisier on the 12t and 11t cogs so I thought initially it was rubbing the derailleur, but its not.The noise is due to chain engaging chainring teeth at sharp angle rather than straight on.Same thing happen in the big big combo but less pronounced. Also, my chain is just shy of being too long because I orginally cut it for a 52/36 chainring combo but am now running 50/34. Its not rubbing the rear deraiileur jockey wheel, but I suspect if I cut out a link, it would tigheten up,and quiet down a bit more. But why botner since I dont ride in tnis gear combo ever?
— Running 5800 on my steel Soma commuter with an older 10speed Sram Rival Crankset. No rubbing and chain is pretty quiet all the way to the 11t cog. When I ran 9 speed 5500 with this same crankset,the chain would clear the derailleur but nick the inside of the big ring,a problem mentioned earlier in the thread. I corrected that by adding small spacers with chainring bolts. Not needed with the 11 speed chain and derailleur.
— I have 6800 on my Cannondale CAAD10 with SRAM Red22 cranks. No rubbing when in trim position all the way down to 11t cog. The chain does get noisier on the 12t and 11t cogs so I thought initially it was rubbing the derailleur, but its not.The noise is due to chain engaging chainring teeth at sharp angle rather than straight on.Same thing happen in the big big combo but less pronounced. Also, my chain is just shy of being too long because I orginally cut it for a 52/36 chainring combo but am now running 50/34. Its not rubbing the rear deraiileur jockey wheel, but I suspect if I cut out a link, it would tigheten up,and quiet down a bit more. But why botner since I dont ride in tnis gear combo ever?
— Running 5800 on my steel Soma commuter with an older 10speed Sram Rival Crankset. No rubbing and chain is pretty quiet all the way to the 11t cog. When I ran 9 speed 5500 with this same crankset,the chain would clear the derailleur but nick the inside of the big ring,a problem mentioned earlier in the thread. I corrected that by adding small spacers with chainring bolts. Not needed with the 11 speed chain and derailleur.
12-19-18, 06:31 AM
#24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I've still been trying to get the right balance for this and one thing I have noticed with the trim ... if the cable is slacker I get a lot of movement between the 2 trim positions on the small chainring and virtually none on the large and if I tighten up the cable I get the reverse.
Anybody any ideas on this ... I guess it's just finding a happy medium of some movement on both??
Anybody any ideas on this ... I guess it's just finding a happy medium of some movement on both??
12-19-18, 07:55 AM
#25
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FWIW, the noise/detrimental effects of cross-chaining will be more pronounced if your bike's geometry has a shorter vs. longer chainstay. Generally this means bikes with shorter wheelbases vs longer wheelbases.