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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
(Post 21820327)
Bicycle frame reach is the horizontal distance from the center of the bottom bracket to the center top of the head tube: https://bike.bikegremlin.com/5481/st...le-frame-size/
No, the type of bars which one chooses for one's bicycle of course does not affect the reach of the frame on which they are mounted. However, the type of bars one installs on the bicycle and the frame reach both affect the handlebar reach of the rider: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/videos...it-right-video Thus the frame reach plus the reach from the head tube to the hoods determines the location of one's hands. It's fairly well known in the bike fitting community that perfect handlebar reach is when one's upper arms are at about 90° to one's torso when one is in the low hoods position. We see this very clearly in the photo of the rider on the Koga bike. Therefore increasing the reach from the head tube to the hoods while maintaining the same handlebar reach necessitates having a shorter frame reach. In the case of the rider in the photo, his proper handlebar reach could only be provided by selecting a frame with a reach which is much shorter than would be selected had the rider been using conventional handlebars. In fact, his head tube is only about 2" from his knees. Comparing wheel size in the photo to rider size, it appears that this rider is well over 6' tall and his normal frame reach with conventional handlebars would put his headtube about 8" in front of his knees. Thus as you say, choosing to use the bars in the photo "doesn't alter frame stack/reach" however it does determine the reach of the frame on which they are to be mounted. Similarly, my total height does not determine the leg length of my pants, only the length of my legs does. |
At first I thought this was the sub 3 hour century guy. I enjoyed the shop talk about that, using electrical tape to make the bike more slippery, the choice of route and day (hoped for weather conditions), etc. None of that was UCI legal though.
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They are obviously trying to get closer to the aero and support of a TT set up but still be UCI road race legal.
I can see the appeal as long as (as has been mentioned) you have knee clearance for when you stand. You would also effectively lose the top of the bars hand position with it being so narrow and close. |
Originally Posted by Litespud
(Post 21820379)
your reasoning is a little.....arcane....for me. If, for example, my current ride had a 120mm stem and my bars have a reach of 80mm, and I swap that setup for one of these custom jobs with a stem length of 40mm and a bar reach of 160mm (ie, my shifters remain in the same position wrt the other contact points and to the head tube), why would I need to do anything to my frame geometry?
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Reasoning that the new drop bar design will require a frame with a shortened top tube and/or wheelbase---or, indeed, any other frame geometry change---is fallacious and reminds me of the common misunderstanding of how plongeant time trial bikes of the 1980s were meant to fit.
In the latter case, many people believe that the seat tube length should be the same as that of a conventional road bike with a horizontal top tube, when the plongeant bikes should in fact fitted solely according to effective (virtual) top tube length. In other words, if the time trial bike is fitted correctly, the result is that much less of the seat post will be exposed. Having difficulty grasping the concept of fitting a plongeant bike is understandable. The arguments in this thread, less so. |
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
(Post 21820328)
See post 24.
That rider/any rider simply replaced the old stem/bar with the current one. Nothing about the headtube or wheel changes. |
Originally Posted by nomadmax
(Post 21820523)
It does put the tops of the bars 8cm closer to you.
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
(Post 21820273)
Holding a more aerodynamic position.
So on those bars you lean forward, place your elbows on the flat tops and your hands are still on the hoods... so you can shift and brake? Didn't during the Vuelta Espana TT stage they allow aero bars added to drop bars so the riders didn't need to switch bikes for the climb? |
Originally Posted by GlennR
(Post 21820545)
That's what aero bars do.
So on those bars you lean forward, place your elbows on the flat tops and your hands are still on the hoods... so you can shift and brake? You can't ride aero bars in mass-start events. Additional protrusions from the handlebar (clip ons, speed bars, spinachi) are not allowed. You can ride aero handlebars. These (for the moment) are legal to ride in such events. |
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
(Post 21820328)
See post 24.
He's a big dude and he does well getting himself smaller on a bike. |
Originally Posted by GlennR
(Post 21820545)
That's what aero bars do.
So on those bars you lean forward, place your elbows on the flat tops and your hands are still on the hoods... so you can shift and brake? Didn't during the Vuelta Espana TT stage they allow aero bars added to drop bars so the riders didn't need to switch bikes for the climb? |
Originally Posted by Litespud
(Post 21820542)
sure, so I’d have more surface to rest my forearms on, but the hoods where my hands are haven’t changed their relative position, so what has changed that I’d need to alter the frame geometry?
Nothing comes without compromise. |
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
(Post 21820327)
Bicycle frame reach is the horizontal distance from the center of the bottom bracket to the center top of the head tube: https://bike.bikegremlin.com/5481/st...le-frame-size/
No, the type of bars which one chooses for one's bicycle of course does not affect the reach of the frame on which they are mounted. However, the type of bars one installs on the bicycle and the frame reach both affect the handlebar reach of the rider: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/videos...it-right-video Thus the frame reach plus the reach from the head tube to the hoods determines the location of one's hands. It's fairly well known in the bike fitting community that perfect handlebar reach is when one's upper arms are at about 90° to one's torso when one is in the low hoods position. We see this very clearly in the photo of the rider on the Koga bike. Therefore increasing the reach from the head tube to the hoods while maintaining the same handlebar reach necessitates having a shorter frame reach. In the case of the rider in the photo, his proper handlebar reach could only be provided by selecting a frame with a reach which is much shorter than would be selected had the rider been using conventional handlebars. In fact, his head tube is only about 2" from his knees. Comparing wheel size in the photo to rider size, it appears that this rider is well over 6' tall and his normal frame reach with conventional handlebars would put his headtube about 8" in front of his knees. Thus as you say, choosing to use the bars in the photo "doesn't alter frame stack/reach" however it does determine the reach of the frame on which they are to be mounted. Similarly, my total height does not determine the leg length of my pants, only the length of my legs does. Therefore increasing the reach from the head tube to the hoods... They're not doing that. You're not understanding the product. Total reach of the stem/bars doesn't change - https://www.speeco.tech/abb-aero-break-away-handlebars/ Reach: Here is where it gets fun, all length you currently have over a 70mm stem will be added to your reach. Enabling a large contact area with your arm, and less leverage on your arms and shoulders. Customized to your needs. |
Originally Posted by rubiksoval
(Post 21820558)
You can use aero bars in time trials. Time trials aren't mass-start events.
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Those tri aero handlebar water bottles with the huge straws can't be far behind.
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Originally Posted by GlennR
(Post 21820611)
So you race all the time?
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
(Post 21820692)
What are you talking about?
Originally Posted by rubiksoval
(Post 21820558)
Time trials aren't mass-start events.
Clip on can be easily removed and reinstalled. I also don't understand where your hands are with those bars. Elbows on the tops and hands on the hoods? Doesn't seem link an improvement... and watch those knees when climbing. |
Originally Posted by GlennR
(Post 21820696)
This
So you must race. Clip on can be easily removed and reinstalled. I also don't understand where your hands are with those bars. Elbows on the tops and hands on the hoods? Doesn't seem link an improvement... and watch those knees when climbing. |
Originally Posted by WhyFi
(Post 21820713)
You seem to be confused on multiple points.
Are they for comfort or aero that is UCI legal. Personally, flat bars are more comfortable. And unless you are a pro racer, do you really care about being UCI legal. So are these just to be different, like the Ceramic Speed oversize jockey wheels? |
Originally Posted by GlennR
(Post 21820696)
This
So you must race. Clip on can be easily removed and reinstalled. I also don't understand where your hands are with those bars. Elbows on the tops and hands on the hoods? Doesn't seem link an improvement... and watch those knees when climbing. You can use those bars in a mass start event. A road race, a circuit race and a crit are mass start, though using those in a crit would be silly. A TT is not a mass start event, so you can use TT style bars, because you aren't inches away from the wheel in front of you. You train on UCI legal stuff, because if you didn't, when you did race in an event that followed UCI rules, you wouldn't be in a foreign position. |
Originally Posted by LAJ
(Post 21820730)
You can use those bars in a mass start event. A road race, a circuit race and a crit are mass start, though using those in a crit would be silly. A TT is not a mass start event, so you can use TT style bars, because you aren't inches away from the wheel in front of you.
You train on UCI legal stuff, because if you didn't, when you did race in an event that followed UCI rules, you wouldn't be in a foreign position. |
Originally Posted by GlennR
(Post 21820743)
So they're for a marginal gain in a UCI race and not for the average recreational rider. Since I don't race, I see no need for them. I do see many recreational riders with clip on bars, not so much for an aero gain, but it give them another position for their hands. I generally don't do club rides but the ones i've been on, no one was excluded for having clip on aero bars. And if the group didn't allow them it would only take 30 seconds to remove them.
A marginal gain in a breakaway specialist may be all it takes to win that particular race. The logic behind the statement "I don't race, therefor they're not needed" is the failed logic I see all the time here. Just because those may not fit into your life experiences, doesn't mean they won't fit into anyone's life... It's a product that has a use, though it may not be useful to you. |
Originally Posted by GlennR
(Post 21820743)
So they're for a marginal gain in a UCI race and not for the average recreational rider. Since I don't race, I see no need for them. I do see many recreational riders with clip on bars, not so much for an aero gain, but it give them another position for their hands. I generally don't do club rides but the ones i've been on, no one was excluded for having clip on aero bars. And if the group didn't allow them it would only take 30 seconds to remove them.
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I'm going to stay away from this thread-
confusion seems to be spreading & I don't want to catch it. |
Originally Posted by GlennR
(Post 21820743)
So they're for a marginal gain in a UCI race and not for the average recreational rider. Since I don't race, I see no need for them. I do see many recreational riders with clip on bars, not so much for an aero gain, but it give them another position for their hands. I generally don't do club rides but the ones i've been on, no one was excluded for having clip on aero bars. And if the group didn't allow them it would only take 30 seconds to remove them.
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