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Madone vs Emonda-madone faster climbing?

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Madone vs Emonda-madone faster climbing?

Old 04-09-21, 07:49 AM
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rclouviere
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Madone vs Emonda-madone faster climbing?

Iím training for 3 upcoming races in the police games: 3-mile climb, 10-mile TT and a 40-mile road race with 4,000 feet of climbing. I have a madone slr 7 (weight around 18 pounds) and a 2019 Emonda SLR (weight 15 pounds). When my Emonda was in the shop, i rode my madone in the mountains and it seemed like there wasnít much of a difference in overall pace. So, this week i rode the Emonda on a ride that was 36 miles with 3000í of climbing. Thereís a 5-mile strava segment the first 5 miles (flat). I PRd it (no surprise since i usually ride the Emonda). A couple days later i rode the Emonda on the same course. Surprisingly, i PRd the 5-mile segment (3 seconds). I thought Iíd be quite a bit faster overall since the climbing started after that. At the end, the ride with the madone was 10 seconds faster. I have an 11/28 cassette on the madone and 11/32 on the emonda. I know thereís could be lots of variables (wind, how Iím feeling that day, etc., but Iím con confused. Thoughts?
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Old 04-09-21, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by rclouviere View Post
I know thereís could be lots of variables (wind, how Iím feeling that day, etc.,
That's the key right here.

Bike weight plays out over longer periods of time on steeper gradients. I don't think 5min is enough. Wind and other things can affect flat land work. You have to control variables in experiments if you want results worth looking at. So, choose a low wind day or equal days for your try. Hold the power constant. Wear the same clothes or kit. Etc....

I have a local 10mi TT route. Out/back. The angle the wind presents to an out/back course can affect time given equal power. Even then, humidity and temperature matter a LOT.

A fast TT day is usually one not deemed comfortable outdoors........warm and humid. Low air density. A warm but dry day is slower, denser air.
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Old 04-09-21, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rclouviere View Post
Iím training for 3 upcoming races in the police games: 3-mile climb, 10-mile TT and a 40-mile road race with 4,000 feet of climbing. I have a madone slr 7 (weight around 18 pounds) and a 2019 Emonda SLR (weight 15 pounds). When my Emonda was in the shop, i rode my madone in the mountains and it seemed like there wasnít much of a difference in overall pace. So, this week i rode the Emonda on a ride that was 36 miles with 3000í of climbing. Thereís a 5-mile strava segment the first 5 miles (flat). I PRd it (no surprise since i usually ride the Emonda). A couple days later i rode the Emonda on the same course. Surprisingly, i PRd the 5-mile segment (3 seconds). I thought Iíd be quite a bit faster overall since the climbing started after that. At the end, the ride with the madone was 10 seconds faster. I have an 11/28 cassette on the madone and 11/32 on the emonda. I know thereís could be lots of variables (wind, how Iím feeling that day, etc., but Iím con confused. Thoughts?
As above, there are a lot of variables to take into consideration. I did a local 10 mile TT on a closed circuit this week and last week. Identical bike and kit, similar wind conditions, even my off time was pretty much the same (6:33:30 and 6:34) but an 11 degrees celcius temperature difference (17 degrees last week, 6 degrees this week). I had the exact same power output as well (194 watt average, 198 normalised), the difference in time between the 2 weeks was 28 seconds. And everyone who raced both weeks was between 20 and 30 seconds slower this week, with the cooler temperatures.
Saying that, I would use the emonda for the hill climb, the madone with clip on aero bars for the 10 mile TT if it's a flat course, and I would probably take the madone on the road race as well. But I do prefer aero bikes over lightweight climbing bikes. For 40 miles, which bike do you feel more comfortable on?
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Old 04-09-21, 10:32 AM
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…monda all day 🙂
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Old 04-09-21, 11:05 AM
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rclouviere
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Originally Posted by rivers View Post
As above, there are a lot of variables to take into consideration. I did a local 10 mile TT on a closed circuit this week and last week. Identical bike and kit, similar wind conditions, even my off time was pretty much the same (6:33:30 and 6:34) but an 11 degrees celcius temperature difference (17 degrees last week, 6 degrees this week). I had the exact same power output as well (194 watt average, 198 normalised), the difference in time between the 2 weeks was 28 seconds. And everyone who raced both weeks was between 20 and 30 seconds slower this week, with the cooler temperatures.
Saying that, I would use the emonda for the hill climb, the madone with clip on aero bars for the 10 mile TT if it's a flat course, and I would probably take the madone on the road race as well. But I do prefer aero bikes over lightweight climbing bikes. For 40 miles, which bike do you feel more comfortable on?
Thanks for the reply. I was thinking the same about which bikes to use; however, with the climbs so close, i was second guessing myself since the madone would be much faster on the descents. I do have integrated TT bars for the Madone.

In fact, the madone is more comfortable- the emonda is the H1 fit ( more aggressive and slammed stem).
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Old 04-09-21, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
That's the key right here.

Bike weight plays out over longer periods of time on steeper gradients. I don't think 5min is enough. Wind and other things can affect flat land work. You have to control variables in experiments if you want results worth looking at. So, choose a low wind day or equal days for your try. Hold the power constant. Wear the same clothes or kit. Etc....

I have a local 10mi TT route. Out/back. The angle the wind presents to an out/back course can affect time given equal power. Even then, humidity and temperature matter a LOT.

A fast TT day is usually one not deemed comfortable outdoors........warm and humid. Low air density. A warm but dry day is slower, denser air.

Yeah, youíre right. In fact, yesterdayís ride was the day after a leg weight workout (first in months). This couldíve played a role too.

the watts pushed on the emonda was a little less on the climbs. Wondering if the 11/32 cassette would reflect this (since i had a higher cadence)??
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Old 04-09-21, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by rclouviere View Post
Yeah, youíre right. In fact, yesterdayís ride was the day after a leg weight workout (first in months). This couldíve played a role too.

the watts pushed on the emonda was a little less on the climbs. Wondering if the 11/32 cassette would reflect this (since i had a higher cadence)??
The only time gearing would affect anything is if it is sufficiently annoying in terms of the jumps between gear changes or the cadence it forces you to use at the time.

Otherwise, your freshness from day to day can affect it more.

I'm one of those power meter "people". So, it lets me know whether what I'm seeing makes sense or not.

The pursuit of improving a speed number is a fun and noble pursuit that provides a lot of things to try, work on, investigate. Be it uphill or flat land. Keep at it. Keep good notes. Spot trends or correlations.

I know some folks groan hearing folks do this, but it fascinates me that when doing a 10mi distance on the TT bike that something as simple as how I hold the extensions can make a difference. Normal grip. Stacked. Only hold with pinky and ring finger to get both hands up more. Etc..... I'm a nerd and an engineer, so it's right up my alley.

The climbing just isn't my thing because I don't live near anything. And Zwift may simulate well on my direct drive, but it's still fake. Not real or the same. So, I never really focus on that.

Let us know how your event goes! Good luck.
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Old 04-09-21, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
That's the key right here.

Bike weight plays out over longer periods of time on steeper gradients. I don't think 5min is enough. Wind and other things can affect flat land work. You have to control variables in experiments if you want results worth looking at. So, choose a low wind day or equal days for your try. Hold the power constant. Wear the same clothes or kit. Etc....

I have a local 10mi TT route. Out/back. The angle the wind presents to an out/back course can affect time given equal power. Even then, humidity and temperature matter a LOT.

A fast TT day is usually one not deemed comfortable outdoors........warm and humid. Low air density. A warm but dry day is slower, denser air.
So very true about warm and humid being so much faster!
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Old 04-09-21, 12:00 PM
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rclouviere
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
The only time gearing would affect anything is if it is sufficiently annoying in terms of the jumps between gear changes or the cadence it forces you to use at the time.

Otherwise, your freshness from day to day can affect it more.

I'm one of those power meter "people". So, it lets me know whether what I'm seeing makes sense or not.

The pursuit of improving a speed number is a fun and noble pursuit that provides a lot of things to try, work on, investigate. Be it uphill or flat land. Keep at it. Keep good notes. Spot trends or correlations.

I know some folks groan hearing folks do this, but it fascinates me that when doing a 10mi distance on the TT bike that something as simple as how I hold the extensions can make a difference. Normal grip. Stacked. Only hold with pinky and ring finger to get both hands up more. Etc..... I'm a nerd and an engineer, so it's right up my alley.

The climbing just isn't my thing because I don't live near anything. And Zwift may simulate well on my direct drive, but it's still fake. Not real or the same. So, I never really focus on that.

Let us know how your event goes! Good luck.
Iím kind of the same way. Power meters are a great invention. Like you, i enjoy doing the comparisons. And, For me, cuts out the excuses.
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Old 04-09-21, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ti473 View Post
So very true about warm and humid being so much faster!
It doesn't feel great though! The humidity and heat feels awful when going really hard.
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Old 04-09-21, 12:18 PM
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Recent testing has shown that the overall speed of a bike is largely dependent on the letters used in the naming of the bike. More specifically, speed depends on the letters in the same way points are awarded in Scrabble. (That's why Quintana Roo is so popular among triathletes -- the Q makes them fast.) So, all you need to do is compare the letter scores of your two bikes and you'll have your answer.
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Old 04-09-21, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
So, all you need to do is compare the letter scores of your two bikes and you'll have your answer.
So, youíre saying that the 3 Treks (Madone, Domane, and Emonda) are the same speed?
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Old 04-09-21, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sarhog View Post
So, youíre saying that the 3 Treks (Madone, Domane, and Emonda) are the same speed?
Yep.
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Old 04-09-21, 05:25 PM
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I have an 18lb 2003 bike and a 16lb 2018 bike. There are a couple of climbing PRs done with the old bike in the past 6 months that I still haven't beaten with the newer bike. Motor and conditions matter a LOT more than the differences between similar bikes.
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Old 04-10-21, 05:43 AM
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Are the wheels, tires, and position the same on both bikes?
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Old 04-11-21, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Quiglesnbits View Post
Are the wheels, tires, and position the same on both bikes?
No, not at all. Madone is
aero setup with position and deep wheels. Emonda aggressive position and non deep wheels (lighter).
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Old 04-11-21, 08:03 PM
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moadone fasty flatty , emonda uppy hilly , both over priced garbage bikes LOLO
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Old 04-11-21, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Toespeas View Post
moadone fasty flatty , emonda uppy hilly , both over priced garbage bikes LOLO
Trek uses the Madone in more than flat races. I think Mads used a Madone when he took Worlds. I also think Ritchie Port used a Madone when he won the Walunga Hill stage. Of course pros climb at a much faster speed then what most of us do, so that might have something to do with their bike choice.


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