Monument Man

Hello, I'm trying to learn more about climbing and gear ratios. Also looking at a new bike. So all of this stuff is related in some way.

BACKGROUND: I participated in the Climb to the Clouds ride on Sunday in Massachusetts which honestly was aptly named due to the thick fog which I found myself in atop Mt. Wachusett and subsequent downpour on the descent. The 60 mile route totaled a cumulative 5000 (approx.) feet of climbing including the featured climb of Wachusett. This featured climb was my first "real" climb and I believe that I encountered the limits of my bike, and or legs. The climb was around 4 miles and had a 1 mile section at a steady grade of 9%. The main climb ascended something like 1500 vertical feet, although this is a guess. All in all I did pretty well and averaged 18mph riding solo but was concerned that my bike really limited me on the hills. So I'm wondering if I'm just a sore loser who is looking to replace my bike with something pricey, or if I actually have a point.

During the climb, I was really, really tired but felt that the gearing on my bike and the weight (22lbs) was not adequate for the steeps. I felt like I couldn't push the pedals, yet I still had energy to spin. It was an unusual feeling, becuase I had a little gas in the tank, yet couldn't really spin the pedals. I was out of the saddle for most of the climb, in order to power the pedals. Mind you I never actually stopped, rather I just kept a slow pace while out of the saddle and wished I had a new carbon bike to ride.

MY BIKE SETUP I have a Lemond Poprad Cyclocross rig which I've outfitted with a set of road tires (700x28) and I have a 52/39 double and 13/26 8 speed Sora cassette. The frame is steel and the entire rig weighs around 22lbs, give or take. Although I don't know too much about gearing, I would think that my gearing is more tuned towards climbing than a normal road bike (compared to my cross bike), so I worry that I won't get any climbing benefit if I buy an expensive new road bike.

MY STATS I'm 32, 6'1", 180lbs, riding 150-200 miles per week. The Poprad cyclocross is the closest thing to a road bike I've ever owned. I don't race but am in terriffic shape for a commuter.

QUESTIONS
* I am considering the Felt F2C as a road bike replacement/upgrade. The F2C has a compact crankset (50/34 I believe) and an 11-23 10 speed DA cassette. The bike weighs 17 pounds. Would this bike allow me to climb better/faster?
* Anybody who wants to show me how I can compare gearings on two different bikes is more than welcome to try, although I can not promise to comprehend.
* My inability to spin when climbing? What's the deal: Legs? Gearing? Heavy bike?
* Aside from the F2C, are there any other bikes which you may recommend for me to look at? New and used, ebay fine, etc. I'm thinking carbon fiber, with good wheels, and good components. My commutes are high speed, fair weather, and don't require any special panniers. My $$$ limit is around $2500 so I would gladly buy used if I could get a super sweet ride for cheap (or new if I could get a good bargain like the Felt seems to be). I ride with groups on the weekends and occasionally a team (not racing) I'm involved with. I do occasional centuries and basically want to go as fast as possible at all times.

OLD BIKE



NEW BIKE???

Monument Man

oh yeah one more thing

because of all the rain I ended up getting a blister on the "heel" of my hand, by my wrist. a dime would cover it entirely, but not by much.

should i pop it or let it go away on its own? i plan to ride 37 miles tomorrow, weather permitting.

ggg300

If anyone ever deserved to get the answer you asked....it you my friend.
A lot of what your going to get is subjective and your Man hood will be called into question, look out for the BS....it's on its way.

I do a ride that is a lil less than the one you just did every so offten (44 miles 4000ft climb) and I have talked about gears and read about them till I was sick of the topic. Here is my input:

1) If you have to stand to push up the hill your gear may be to big.
a) that compact crank and the 11-23 on the bike that your thinking about is not going to give you any real change as the 39/26 combo that you have now is not to far off the 34/23
b) a compact crank with a 12-26 or 12-27 will be what your looking for and that is why I will advise that you consider getting a compact for you bike.

2) Why the compact now and not a new bike:
a. from what I read this is your 1st real climb....you'll get better and if you kinda ok with a 39-26 and that hill your going to do fine. Try and do the climb or one like a bit more before thinking about a whole new bike to see. Before you go try the following:
a. train to spin more all of the time.
b. do hill repeats and make sure that you sit down and pull up with you knees as much as you push down.
c. eat on a long climb and drink.
d. the bike will cost $$$ and a compact crank is a lot less and its an easy fix.

sydney

Well, if you are dragging any extra bacon and haven't been training hard, you will be just as pathetic on a high $$ CF ride. You might need lower gears. Sheldon Brown has a gear inch chart at www.harriscyclery.com

'nother

I would not rush out and buy a new bike based on your first experience with a major climb. It probably won't help. Your lowest combo of 39-26 is fairly low, but you could go lower. I have a similar setup: Trek cross bike, Sora, 52/39 with 12-32 on the rear. When I was starting out about a year ago I frequently "wished" for a new bike, too -- but I knew I was not getting one anytime soon. So instead I invested my time and energy into training, and you know what? I'm in that 32T gear a LOT less these days (though I admit there are still several climbs around here that I simply could not do without it).

I would suggest maybe try a new cassette, get to something with a 28T or even more. 8-speeds are fairly easy to find and not too expensive . . . maybe get a couple of them and experiment.

At 6'1"/180lb. it doesn't sound like you're overweight but maybe shaving a few pounds wouldn't hurt. But more likely you'd benefit from more focused training with an emphasis on hill work. Your body is almost certainly more limiting than your bike.

divekrb

Lighter is always faster uphill if the motor is the same. Having a 10 speed will give you more 'tweener gears to match your cadence to effort, though the 39/26 34/23 ratios are damn close. If the bike fits you all answers point to yes, you'll be faster. Ignore the people who tell you you'd be better off saving your money and losing weight. 5 pounds be five pounds and if you lose five pounds AND get the new bike you'll be even faster.

Plus you'll benefit from the rigidity, and getting a new bike is ABSOLUTELY THE BEST WAY TO SPEND MONEY, short of using it to solve world hunger.

See the attachment...simple spreadsheet that tells you how many time the rear wheel turns per crank rotation. Lower number = easier. Higher number = harder. Simpler than the gear inches chart you'll be pointed to.

Yes to all. And/or you're a slow twitch muscle fiber guy. Most people have to train to adapt to high (90+ RPM) cadence spinning. Give it a year or two. Some folks never adapt to it. Better if you can though...

Carbon may not be the answer. My race bike is an Orbea Starship, which is all aluminum except for the fork. 13.75# & climbs like a goat. I've got an all carbon Orca, but I prefer the aluminum bike for hills. Try several bikes and wheelsets and get the one you like best.

late

Another vote for lower gearing. As you get in shape, you'll be able to push higher gears. My bike has a road triple (52/42/30) and a huge rear cassette (12-34). I swapped out the 30 for a 28 on the small ring up front. My low gear is pretty low. You don't have to go that far. But I would start with the rear, as has been suggested (12-32),
and if you need more get a road triple. I think Sugino makes a nice but cheap 8 speed triple.

divekrb

And have them throw on a bigger rear cassette on the new bike...I agree that lower gears will help keep your cadence up.

Monument Man

hi yall thanks for the responses

just to clarify this climb was not the reason I'm thinking of buying a new bike. I've wanted something new for a while. I *am* buying a new bike, and I want to ensure I get the best thing for me.

re: physical condition - I've put 1800 miles on the cyclocross rig since April. And I want to upgrade to something sweet and keep the cross rig for winter/rain/city stuff and put the knobby tires back on it for the trails I ride on my 37 mile commute. I did the MS 150 miler over 20mph a few weeks ago. I will average over 23/24mph for sub-10 mile distances. I have no idea how fast my cadence is but it's relatively high, I spefically try to work a high cadence, and on that big 4 mile climb was the first time I really had to use a lower cadence.

So I won't break any speed records or win any strength contests or races but I'm lean and muscular with low body fat - in the gym 3 days a week and riding high intensity roughly 4 times per week. I do well on the weekend fitness rides. My issue is not that I couldn't climb, but that I couldn't SPIN, rather I had to stand. And I was hoping that a similar gearing, on a much lighter bike (Felt vs. Poprad is 5# lighter) would help me to spin instead of mash. Guess I was wrong!

I know my engine needs some work *especially* in the hills, but just think of how desperate you'll all be to see the pics of my new steed once I buy my new rig!

so anyway looks like the difference in bike won't really make any difference and that a lower gearing is what would be the most helpful, aside from really blasting my legs!

Monument Man

woah 13.75#! jeezus, is it comfy on longer rides? due to my city situation I really can't have a specific climbing bike (no where to put it and wife will kill file for divorce) so I'm looking for a top end all around bike with light weight, good wheels, nice frame, and good components. plus we don't have enough serious climbing here to justify a climbing only rig. I'll have to save that for next year

So no takers on the blister question eh?

Monument Man

I forgot to mention that I'm going to spend two weeks in the rocky mtns camping and cycling in late august which is another reason i'm interested in climbing and gear ratios.

krazyderek

depending on how stiff your current bike is i have to agree, i noticed a pretty good increase in performance going to my CF trek, and it was around 4-5 pounds lighter aswell. It will make climbing easier, it even made it more enjoyable for me, which then led to me losing 15 pounds over the last month or two. I say if you have the money to spare, go ahead and spoil yourself, a little late in the season but it will be a good investment that you should be able to hold onto for a couple of years.

Monument Man

yeah i bought my cross bike for $500 NEW figuring i'd ride it and figure exactly what i wanted. if i had to do it all over again, i'd never have bought a cross bike because I'm riding all on-road (i figured i could add panniers or racks but have no need). but that's why you buy a cheap bike at first.

unfortunately what i want is a super pricey bike! ah. anyway i figure i can save a little money by buying something in about a month or so, and have a great ride for next year all ready to go.

divekrb

It's not bad up to the three hour mark. I get a lot of comments on the carbon saddle but like all seats, it's what fits you. It's strictly for racing; stiff wheels, bars, stem, Etc. The saving grace is I'm running tubulars.

And it's 13.5# in climbing trim

The Orca is a touch over 15 and is way comfy.

Not from here...

MasterSezFaster

About gearing, every one has given you valid points.

As far as the new bike, since you want one then you shoud go out and get one. If you have the funds why not. A new ride is a beautiful thing. Especially a CF one Use the advice you got for gearing and try to get the gearing you need on your new bike. A new bike with lower gearing and you are set.

There are a few cf bikes in your price range besides the Felt. Take a look at Bianchi's 928 (just under 2400$) or even a Giant TCR (around 1900$). Those are two I can recal the prices on but I have seen others in that range.

dekalbSTEEL

Pop 'em, always! With a nice long sewing needle!!!!!

Thylacine

Well durrrr you need a bigger cog on the back if you're grinding up the hills. Why is this even up for debate?

If you're riding primarily on the road, then the Poprad ain't the best option. Sure, a road bike sub 19lbs would be better, but seriously, if you want a new bike and are finding yourself riding only on the road, then just get one.

You don't need to become a weight weenie to climb either. You just have to be an overall light package, have big lungs and be fit as !#*?¶&.

KevinF

Monument Man -- I used to ride a bike that came in at about 23 pounds, and I recently switched to an all-carbon one that comes in at around 17. Sound familair? The old bike had a triple (although I'd almost never use the granny gear), the new bike has a compact. We both live in basically the same area (I was doing CttC as well -- wasn't the rain fun ?). Short answer: losing about 6 pounds off the bike has gained me exactly zero noticeable seconds on climbs.

Wachusett isn't easy by any stretch, but the gear you can spin comes down to the legs, and not much else. During years that I've been in really good hill-climb shape, I took that 23 pound bike of mine up in a 42x21 low (about a 39x19). (i.e, 42/21 = 2, 39/19 equals just about 2). For comparison, I'm about 6'2" and 165.

Are there any noticeable hills on your commute? Doing hills repeats (a forum search should turn up more then enough threads on ways to do these) will work some miracles for your climbing ability.

Grasschopper

Just because the stock spec on the F2C is an 11-23 it doesn't mean your LBS wont change it out. I think that could be a great bike if it fits and just get them to throw a 12-25 or 12-27 on there and you will be able to spin up about anything. I recently switched form an Ultegra triple (52-42-30) to a Ritchey WCS compact (50-34) and I loike it a lot. At the same time I went from a 12-25 cassette to a 12-27 which gives me nearly as low a gear as 30-25 but not quite. I did a ride last week with ~5000' of climbing and the last climb was very constantly steep but I was able to make it over in 34-27...I thought I was going to die but I was still able to spin that gear up the hill. Don't just buy the stock bike if it isn't right for you. Shops will be willing to swap a cassette or a stem or saddle etc to make a $2500 sale. My father recently bought a 04 closeout Trek 5200 and the shop converted it from a triple to a double, changed the stem to fit for length, and swapped the stock cassette to a different gearing all at no cost, plus they threw in bottle holders and sold him the bike at 20% off MSRP since it was a closeout (this was back in March).

Monument Man

Yeah that rain was wild. On my real descent it was only like a thick mist with wet roads, and then the skies unloaded on me on the long straightaway after passing the visitor's center on the way home. a tip for contacts wearers: 50mph + heavy rain + no sunglasses = right contact rolling around in eye. Lost my shades boating last week.

On my commute there's one big hill, and a few "walls" basically shortish steeps and rollers. I can absolutely power through everything at very high speeds except for the aforementioned big hill which is around .75 miles, steady, and moderately steep. My form up that hill really depends on the day, and my energy level. OTOH my sprinting form is terriffic due to the stops and starts of the commute! I ride from Chelmsford to Boston and it's PM only, and thus into the usual east onshore headwind.

shnapper

Have any pictures of your Orca? I'd like to see the frameset color you chose............

divekrb

https://www.breathhold.com/Orca/orca.html

I put on some new bars and a under seat bag so it's a touch over 15# right now. Haven't updated the pics.

skinnyone

chopper is on the money... Mman, are you set on the F2c... Its a sweet bike(I drool over it everyday) but apparently there are huge delays in getting one(?).. If you wouldnt mind me askingm where in Ma are you planning on getting the Felt... Pro cycles in stoneham used to carry them, I got my F70 from them, but they closed down...

If I may, can I suggest a look at Cervelo and Giant. They tend to be pretty nice.. Seaside Cycles in Manchester carry cervelos...

Another thing to keep in mind is that wheel weight matters a lot as its rotational weight.. Light wheels with your new light bike would be kick A ...

Monument Man

I found a Felt F2C in my size at a LBS along my commute. Somebody swiped my frame pump and I needed to replace it. just happened to pop in during my ride - never been there before and I can't remember the name. I wanted to check out the Litespeeds and low and behold they had the F2C. I've kinda considered myself a sucker for the "Steel is real" kind of baloney and really liked the idea, look, feel and longevity of Ti, but after seeing the Felt in person I started thinking seriously about carbon. It was several hundred $$ cheaper than the Litespeed Teramo, a georgeous compact geometry Ultegra outfitted rig. The felt 's one hot looking bike and with nearly all DA components it's a great bargain.

Wheelworks has a few, not sure if they have it in my size. Belmont, not Somerville. They seem to get new stock, because every time I go in there they have a different arrangement of bikes.

Dchiefransom

My new Giant OCR2 Comp is stiffer in the rear than my Lemond Zurich, and climbs better, but if this old weak guy knows he's going to go steep, it's the 26 pound Trek 420, with the 28/38/48, and the 14-32 casette that gets the nod. Buy a bike you like, and get the gearing on it that YOU like, and never look back. Some people in my club use an 11-34 rear cassette with an MTB derailler.