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Hybrid drivetrain

Old 12-27-22, 03:08 PM
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rudypyatt
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Hybrid drivetrain

I think I was derailing the 1x Climbers thread with remarks and questions about hybrid (hub gear plus cassette) drivetrains, so I figured I would start a new thread.

For decades, since at least the 1940s (someone from C&V please correct me if Iím wrong), Sturmey-Archer has offered geared hubs onto which you can thread additional cogs or cassettes. Currently, they offer three speed hubs for rim, disc, and drum brakes for which you can thread on any eight or nine speed cassette (smallest sprocket specified is an 11): All the advantages of a road or touring triple with a good chain line and no front derailleur.

Now Classified is making inroads to the racing peloton with its two speed hub, directly marketing its product to the high performance market.

What do you all think of these systems? They seem to solve one of the primary objections to hub gears, namely the wide steps between gears. Put on a close ratio cassette and the hub serves the same function as a front derailleur. Does anyone think these are a viable alternative to the now-common 1x 11 or 1x12?
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Old 12-27-22, 04:58 PM
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Are you talking about the same thing they are talking about in this article?

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cla...n-pro-peloton/

If and when it gets offered on new bikes at my price point and will do what I need, then I'd have no issue with it. I'd have no issue with a purely IGH hub if it had the price, weight, gearing range and other things I currently expect from the derailleur system on my bike today.

It's not a new concept. DIY'ers have done this long ago. Sheldon Brown wrote an article about a bike he built with a IGH hub and derailleur system quite a long time ago.

It might be where bike technology needs to go for a while to deal with 1x limitations.

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Old 12-27-22, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Are you talking about the same thing they are talking about in this article?

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cla...n-pro-peloton/

If and when it gets offered on new bikes at my price point and will do what I need, then I'd have no issue with it. I'd have no issue with a purely IGH hub if it had the price, weight, gearing range and other things I currently expect from the derailleur system on my bike today.

It's not a new concept. DIY'ers have done this long ago. Sheldon Brown wrote an article about a bike he built with a IGH hub and derailleur system quite a long time ago.

It might be where bike technology needs to go for a while to deal with 1x limitations.
This is what I mean, and, as you say, itís not a new thing. SA has been offering versions of this concept for something close to 80 years. The Classified hub has bling factor and marketing, but credit to them for making something old new again. Also credit to them for making the effort to market for high performance applications, something SA hasnít bothered to do since the 1950s.

People are used to thinking of hub gears on 50 pound Dutch bikes or old Raleigh Sports and other upright bikes. That Classified is going after the lightweight market is good. But I think SA has a more versatile solution (hubs that give the equivalent of a triple chainring, no proprietary cassette) at a lower price that they should aim at the same market.

Thing is, SA (for that matter, Classified) doesnít have the prestige of Shimano/SRAM/Campagnolo. People might not accept the idea unless itís from one of those three.
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Old 12-27-22, 09:36 PM
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I am a C &V'er and have a bike set up with a Sturmey Archer AW and two cogs. I never understood why this didn't catch on. I have had this set up since before Shimano came out with Positron (or maybe around the same time frame). This works great. The Internally geared hub shifts much faster than a front derailleur. And with less fuss. I can even pre-shift when going from 2nd to 3rd. This was index shifting before index shifting was a thing. Six equally spaced gear ratios, no overlap.

My setup would be most useful for commuting and city riding. I use if for cross-country riding on dirt trails.

This new version sounds good to me. Eliminating the front derailleur and getting near instant shifting is good thing. I don't know about how much of an aerodynamic improvement it is. It would be going the right direction, but I think the key is reliable and quick shifting. If you are racing, it can even be a slight advantage if the others in the peloton don't know you've dropped a gear to get ready to break. The negative will be weight.

I am thinking that this two speed has found a way to keep the weight down and perhaps this is on a bike that can be lighter than the minimum weight so why not try this.



I'd love to put together another bike with a more modern hybrid gearing system. I'm guessing this may be outside my budget, but let's see how they get priced and how they catch on.
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Old 12-28-22, 08:17 AM
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I've never seen an internal hub system that was efficient in anything but the middle gear. I can't imagine a racer putting up with the friction losses.
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Old 12-28-22, 08:58 AM
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not sure exactly what is the question, but if I am tracking...

I'd go with a powershift classified unit or something very similar if the price, gearing options, reliability, & compatibility checked all the boxes. I don't anticipate switching over to something like it any time soon.
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Old 12-28-22, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
I've never seen an internal hub system that was efficient in anything but the middle gear. I can't imagine a racer putting up with the friction losses.
Classified claim that the efficiency of their hub is equal to a conventional 2x i.e. lower chain tension and better chain line offsets hub losses. I don't know if anyone has verified this, but a few pros are already racing it.
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Old 12-28-22, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rudypyatt View Post
I think I was derailing the 1x Climbers thread with remarks and questions about hybrid (hub gear plus cassette) drivetrains, so I figured I would start a new thread.

For decades, since at least the 1940s (someone from C&V please correct me if Iím wrong), Sturmey-Archer has offered geared hubs onto which you can thread additional cogs or cassettes. Currently, they offer three speed hubs for rim, disc, and drum brakes for which you can thread on any eight or nine speed cassette (smallest sprocket specified is an 11): All the advantages of a road or touring triple with a good chain line and no front derailleur.

Now Classified is making inroads to the racing peloton with its two speed hub, directly marketing its product to the high performance market.

What do you all think of these systems? They seem to solve one of the primary objections to hub gears, namely the wide steps between gears. Put on a close ratio cassette and the hub serves the same function as a front derailleur. Does anyone think these are a viable alternative to the now-common 1x 11 or 1x12?
As per the other thread I would prefer a hub shift to a conventional 2x, but I would probably go with a 1x12 or 1x13 at this point on a future road bike.
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Old 12-28-22, 12:04 PM
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Since you asked earlier @rudypyatt . Yes, both Sturmey Archer and Sram/Sachs had versions of their three speed hubs with cassettes. These were oem on some folding bikes. Avoiding the front derailleur has benefits on a folding bike.

Sturmey-Archer Cassette hub

By the way, the other benefit of eliminating the front derailleur is that there is no need to micro-adjust if the chain is rubbing on the cage a little. And as the article pointed out, less chance for a dropped chain.

If the price, friction and weight are reasonable enough, and it very well could be with technology from the 21st century (rather than the early part of the last century), then this could be a better option not just for climbing but also gravel. For touring and mountain biking a third gear would be ideal, in my opinion.

I'm hoping that they offer it with 36 holes, a silver body and can keep the price down. It is only a two speed afterall.
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Old 12-28-22, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Classified claim that the efficiency of their hub is equal to a conventional 2x i.e. lower chain tension and better chain line offsets hub losses. I don't know if anyone has verified this, but a few pros are already racing it.
Interesting claims by Classified. But I always thought the friction/efficiency losses for geared hubs were overstated anyway. The classic SA three speed is highly efficient, something like 98 percent or more in direct (second) gear. Itís not like it drops off by 20
percent in the other two gears either, more like 2 percent at worst.

Going through Classifiedís website, I see some big name pros are very enthusiastic about the Powershift hub. Itíll be very interesting to see if itís adopted more widely.
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Old 12-29-22, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rudypyatt View Post
Interesting claims by Classified. But I always thought the friction/efficiency losses for geared hubs were overstated anyway. The classic SA three speed is highly efficient, something like 98 percent or more in direct (second) gear. Itís not like it drops off by 20
percent in the other two gears either, more like 2 percent at worst.

Going through Classifiedís website, I see some big name pros are very enthusiastic about the Powershift hub. Itíll be very interesting to see if itís adopted more widely.
Yeah I really don't think efficiency would be a big issue. If it was I doubt it would have got this far.
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Old 12-30-22, 12:41 PM
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Since manufacturer's are getting rid of the front DR, that leaves a little room for cost of manufacturing considerations so they can include 2 speed hubs without getting the MSRP of the bike too high. Certainly a two speed hub will help make up for the range of gearing lost by 1x or the number of in-between gears depending on what the external gearing is.

I never was able to tear up the 3 speed IGH I had for a long while as a kid. So IGH must be tough enough.
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