dragonflybikes

I agree with alxra, you need to change the jury's definition of the best cyclist to fit Jan not try to make Jan fit the jury's definition.

umd

I have to get one of those for my wife! Where did you find it?

Warblade

Not true, cancer ate away ate his upper body mass which helped him become a much better climber.


Partially true, Lance Lance has more devoted riders [to lance] BUT T-Mobile has the upper hand when it comes to budget. For 2005 the Discovery team had a Budget of $15 Million. For 2005 T-Mobile had a budget of $23.3 Million. $15 Million is a piss in the bucket compared to $23.3 Million.

**Figures quoted from the "VeloNews '05 Official Guide to the Tour de France"

meme

If it's going to be Jan vs. Lance, then its best to just isolate these two from all the other factors; kind of hard to say who's the better athlete when there are so many factors involved. Just have the two of them (and no one else; they must carry whatever they need) in the TdF and then we can find out who's the better cyclist...

Blackberry

Damn interesting thread. You might also add that he has won two of the three grand tours (Vuelta as well as the TDF) while Armstrong has only won the TDF. More info here that could help.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Ullrich

mirona

Yea, I'd keep repeating that the TdF is 'just one race.'

SDRider

I don't think you would be wise to include this in your arguement as it is really nothing more than speculation. Might actually hinder your performance in the debate to bring that up at all.

jbhowat

If you want to educate the kids on the fact that cycling is about more than the TdF, have them look at it this way.

Yes, the TdF is a big race. Consider it like your "final exam" in school. However, just like school has other midterms and tests - there are other races. There are two other major grand tours, the Vuelta and Giro (tour of spain and tour of italy - i would mention that). These are like your big mid-term exams. Then on top of that there are tons of smaller but still very important races EVERY WEEK. These are like the various tests and quizzes you get in school every week.

If a student concentrated on only the final exam for the whole year and got and A on it, but failed or simply didn't take any midterms or tests / quizzes for the rest of the semester - he would fail.

On the other hand, if someone focused on a more broad spectrum and was able to get mostly B's on most of the tests, quizes, midterms, and the final - is it fair to say he is the better student than the kid who fails everything else - but got an A on the final exam. Of course its fair.


Also, research and precisely quote several times where Lance has said that Ullrich "has the best engine", "is the best rider" etc etc. He's said it A LOT.

26mi235

Prepare to defend yourself from Jan's doping offense (recreational drug, but he still was taken out of the sport. He indulged when recovering (not recoverying very quickly) from a knee injury, crashed is car and was nabbed for using Ectasy (spelling).

He probably would have won his first tour as well, but his team leader was in first and he could not attack and people thin that he was told to back off just enough, like in the final TT here he won handily. He lost the third year to a possibly (probably) doped Pantani due to one super mountain stage.

On his team, he was typically the "second" cyclist, as Zabel was the World Number 1 for a number of years and so had to split team resources during the Tour (more lead out riders in the 9, plus Zabel, so he did not have as much support in the high mountains trough the first several of his battles with LA, especially his year with Bianchi (ironically, he lost a key teammate in the chaos of Coast folding and Bianchi picking up the pieces, that would be Manuel Beltran, or he might have won the race that year).

wagathon

That assignment makes about as much sense as having to argue that Germany actually won WWII.

TheKillerPenguin

Noooo way, Ullrich is awesome. Hitler wasn't.

Eatadonut

https://basefree.cementhorizon.com/archives/002201.html

That's the page I found it on, I don't know where he found it, and i haven't been able to find any like it.

jhota

not too hard to claim - the Nazis lost, but look at Germany now (as opposed to before the war).

tourchamp2014

Thank a lot guys! I will tell you guys whether how I did after the debate.

craign04

Lame... better topic would have been armstrong vs. merckx, or even armstrong vs. pantani

TheKillerPenguin

^ You're, kidding, right?

craign04

no, i think ullrich is a great cyclist, but it would have provided for a much better debate if the two cyclists didnt have such a history with one another.

DXchulo

Armstrong vs. Merckx is a worse blowout than Ullrich vs. Arstrong.

georgiaboy

From the standpoint of young German girls between 18-26 years of age Jan is considered the better cyclists!

Also, I believe Ulrich leads Armstrong 13 to 8 in the "Beast of a Man" honor.

SFarrell

This is not even debateable. Ulrich in NO WAY compares to Lance. This is certainly going to be a waste of your time.

duckliondog

Lance won the UCI World's in 1993 before he had cancer. HOWEVER, Jan Ullrich crashed through his team car's rear windshield the day before this year's Tour and still flew throught the ITT.

operator

Looks like could be just someone painted a regular lego guy and gave him some other off the shelf bike. I doubt they'd produce a bike with flat bars and a headlight for Jan to ride.

Avalanche325

Well, isn't that what lawyers do every day**********?

You had better get used to it.

BeauFoster

I am reading "Lance Armstrong's War" right now. There is a full chapter devoted to Jan vs Lance which may be helpful.

bbattle

I'd focus on the fact that cycling in the Tour is a team effort and Lance has been surrounded by top flight talent that was totally committed to getting Lance across the line first.

Jan has not had the best team; this year's team had Vinokourov and Kloden stealing the limelight.

Jan doesn't just compete in the TDF; focus on all his successes racing in Europe.

You can also show how close Jan has come to beating Lance in the past, stress how luck plays no small part in winning the Tour, too.


What's going to kill your argument is when Lance's "lawyer" puts up "The Look" and says "Prosecution Rests. Jan is Owned."