I did lots of test rides on many, many bikes. I really couldn't tell much difference with CF stays on both Ti and Al. Where the CF did make a difference is with the top tube (Serrota Ottrott, Merlin Ciero, Seven Elium, etc.). That made the ride more "comfortable" but actually it was almost too soft a sensation for what I wanted.

All I can say is find some stores with what you are seeking and take some demo rides.

I'd agree. If you ride a ton of miles and want to keep the bike for a decade or more - Ti is kind of hard to replace with any other material (besides steel I suppose). Indestructible 95% of the time. But bear in mind EVERYTHING can and will break. My Spectrum (Merlin) cracked in two places with about 40K miles on the frame. But industry experts tell me that's like a 5% probability - even if your frame has 40-50K miles on it. Which would mean that 99% of these bikes NEVER break (what % ever really do get 40K miles on them, 10%?). I'm hoping my Ibis - which as one of my main bikes will probably see 5K miles annually give or take - will essentially last forever. I'll let you know.

I got the frame for half price... I am one lucky SOB

I had to sell the Ferrari to pay for the bike! :p JK. This was a rush picture, the build isn't complete yet, I just wanted to see what the ACs looked like on there. I'll do the standard garage door picture for everyone when i get done or I'll find some big mansion and quietly sneak up to it and take a pic.

Having ridden neither i may be way off here, but i have a hard time believing that you can have two entirely different materials that perform the same. The charicteristics of Carbon Fiber is vastly different then that of Titanium.

Again, i havnt ridden either so i couldn't tell you which i think feels better, or there is a very big difference...but to say there is no difference seems a tad absurd.

what people like about titanium bikes is that "magic carpet ride" or springiness. It's really just that Ti bikes tend to be somewhat flexy, and you can design one to have a lot of vertical compliance. With CF because you can control the direction, the density and the amount of the layup you can build a bike that is vertically compliant, and laterally stiff. so with a bike like a Cervelo R3 you can design in what people like about Ti, (vertical compliance) and have a bike that is comfortable to ride, and laterally stiff for efficency.

My point isn't that you can make a CF bike that will ride exactly like a Ti bike. My point is you can make a bike out of CF that is better than a Ti bike in every measurable quality, with the arguable exception of durability. (I know a Ghisallo is the lightest frame out there, but with a huge loss of stiffness). So why mess up a good Ti frame by putting CF in it, and loosing the one advantage Ti still has?

And this is coming from a guy that has owned 2 Merlins, and recently put a new 10 speed group on my Merlin. But being objective, I think CF as a frame material now trumps Ti in every category except durability.

Thanks for the inputs, all. Though views on this are conflicting, which I kind of expected, it points out the importance of my taking the test rides with both. Having never ridden a Ti bike I'm not sure what to look for in the ride. But I know enough about the durability, and have heard enough about the smooth ride to be very interested in getting one.

I am considering the Serotta Fierte, a stock frame that lists for a mere $1895 (hint, hint for those who have said they can't afford Ti). It comes in both a Ti seatstay model or a carbon seatstay model. Somehow I need to find a LBS that has both in stock and in my size so I can compare.
http://www.serotta.com/pages/fierte_Ti.html

Makes sense

Yes Ti frames may be a bit squishy compared to a CF racing frame like the Cannondale Six13, Giant TCR or the Trek OCLV - but how much frame rigidity do you REALLY NEED? Unless you're out there sprinting 35+ mph in USCF events - and maybe even if you are, depending on your size/strength/wattage - you're usually not exactly going to lose a race because you're on a Litespeed, Merlin or Serotta Ti racing bike. So 'flexy' is a relative term here. And the ride comfort that flexibility affords - along with the phenomenal feel of a Ti bike - is something most of you who are reading this with skepticism - would probably come to fall in love with over time.

I've seen both sides of this coin, as I point out at the top of the thread. I've just re-discovered my long term love affair with Ti - and I'm glad I did. My guess is that if I keep riding until I'm 80+ (I'm 48 now) I'll always have a high quality Ti bike at my disposal. And with any luck it will remain the Ibis - until I'm 80+. I DO love the Cannondale too. So the bottom line is that if you're a terminal bike weenie like me - you'll probably want a CF AND a Ti bike : ).

Ti sucks man. I mean come on, get with it.

Ti sucks? :eek:

It's one of the stiffest frames I've ridden. Very similar to my cf racing frame.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...0/DSC00041.jpg

And of course, the drivetrain is one of the finest money can buy (sans Record).

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...0/DSC00045.jpg

And of course, a good set of integrated carbon bars is best for topping off any good quality Ti frame.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...0/DSC00053.jpg

I have a few bikes lying around, and my new Ti machine is one of my favorites. Heck, all three of my road machines are my favorites, but for differant reasons. I even love cruising to work on my 27# steel commuter. :D

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...0/DSC00015.jpg

It's not my fault you guys are all biased. ;)

Just poking the beehive ;)

Stop posting pictures of "Fast Attack" I keep getting drool on my keyboard ! :)

I still think someone should give me a Ti bike so I can properly test the ride differences between carbon and titanium. You can probably use it as a tax deduction.

You can borrow mine - i wont be riding it for a while! Its 80 degree days like today that make me wish i hadnt messed my ankle up as bad as i have. I find out tomorrow what exactly is wrong (torn ligaments, fracture, or extremely severe soft tissue damage...i get feeling there wont be good news) and then how long before i can start riding again. *Note to self: dont play indoor soccer against frat boys ever again* I cant wait till i can start riding again - i was on pace to having a good summer (for me at least)...had 100miles in 5 days week, followed by 80 in 6 (a day off in there, and bad weather), then i go and do this to my ankle. But i agree - Ti's are amazing! My Ti, though a 2002 model i believe knocks the socks of my 2004 LeMond Alpe d'Huez (though that isnt a shabby bike either).

I bought a Ti frame just for the more traditional look of it, and the sexy raw look of the metal. Ride Quality......? Who cares? It's a Bicycle, how bad can riding a bicycle regardless of material be? :D

This guy mentioned it earlier and nobody paid him any mind, but I have to agree with him. I'm not going to argue which is better at this point, but in the near future I WILL be able to do an A - B test and give you all a report, because I WILL be getting me an old Lemond.

I own a Merlin Ti, and as all agree, I love it. It's wonderful.

But DON'T underestimate the ride of a Lemond w/ Reynolds 853 steel. I'm telling you, it's a magic carpet ride, dog!!!

Anybody currently out there able to do a side-by-side test of these two materials? Talk to us!

Well I guess I'll chime in too...I'll have to disagree with a few fellow posters that argue the longevity of Ti vs. Carbon topic. To me its a non-issue and not the reason I prefer ti. Factoring out extreme use/abuse, a freak accident, or bad crash either material will likely outlast the rider (especially those of use that change bikes like underwear). Does it matter that the frame could last 50 years if your only going to be riding it 1-6 years? Fact is the reason I chose ti is the quality of the ride. Rather I should clarify, I ride a Ti/carbon frame due to first fit, second ride quality, and third b/c I think it looks damn sexy. Also, IME it's probably a stretch to say all Ti frames have that "magic" ride, in fact my first forey into ti was a dead feeling noodle of a frame that was quickly replaced by a ALU Klein. I've also ridden some more modern renditions that really felt no better than a stock steel bike (and not much lighter). Having said that, I don't think you can go wrong with any of today's experienced ti builders, Moots, DEAN, IF, Serotta, TST, Lightspeed, etc.. Buy what ever suits your fancy and wallet. What I would be leary of is a company with little Ti experience selling a hybrid frame or the liberal use of carbon on a frame just to use carbon. Like on an ALU/carbon mix bike, slapping a cheap low quailty carbon rear end on a frame just to say it has a carbon rear end IMO does little to improve ride quality. On the flip side companies like Merlin, Dean, Paduano, and Temple cycles have put some serious thought in their designs and hand craft some sick Ti/carbon bling that rides as good as they look. Attached is an out dated pic of my vador cti (think stronglights and new SLX) but you should get my drift...just my 2 cents.

Meh, Carbon fiber is Tupperware! If you don't dig it out of the ground and make a frame out of it, it's worthless ;)

NOTHING says OCP then a bike stable painted in Celeste Green! WOW!, and you don't even own a Bianchi..... now THAT is posing.... Hail to the Chief!

Not sure about a full carbon frame since I don't have one just yet.. but have ridden 10k miles on a full Ti frame including 3 crashes and 2 stupid falls.. the frame is pretty indestructable, unlike my body, it is also very comfortable with the help of a carbon seat post, and stiff enough to chase down sprints.. I also have a Carbon/Ti combo and it is not as stiff but this may be due to the choice of wheels, topolinos, currently being used.. will let you know mid summer when I replace the wheels with a stiffer set.. The combo ride is even softer.. but not sure about durability of the frame.. only 3.5k miles so far... 85% of my miles are on NYC roads...

I've got a Ti Seven and a Waterford w/Reynolds 853. The rides are very close. Both have the same Ouzo Pro forks and used to have the same wheels and tires so my comparison between the two is right down to mostly the frames. I had the Seven made with a beefier rear so it didn't flex on sprints and climbs, so the ride is a little more harsh than the Waterford. The funny part is the Waterford is maybe 13 years old so Reynolds really came out with something good with that material.

My Jamis Dragon MTB is Reynolds 853 steel. It rides like a *very* stiff Ti frame. That is to say like a good steel frame : ).

Sorry steel weenies, there is NOTHING quite like Titanium. Not really.

All this other stuff, 'Ti sucks'... well - hey, more Ti for me, eh? No problem.

Yeah but you can't compare MTB to road frames. MTB are made considerably stiff. The wall thickness og typical MTB tudesets is much more than road tube.

I agree with the OP except that good old steel provides exactly the same things as long as you can live with a somewhat heavier bike. My steelie is the nicest riding bike I have with the Ti in second place. The reason, though, could be geometry. My Ti is "twitchier" than my steelie.

+1 on Merlinextralight's comment. Mixing Ti and CF doesn't make good sense to me either. Lightspeed was doing it for a while but I think they finally gave it up.

Aluminum = stiffest, lightest. Usually not real compliant. Can be made to feel responsive. Rear triangles on newer Cannondales are rather remarkably compliant/responsive for an aluminum bike. But noticably stiffer than Ti nonetheless. BIG improvement over what they had 7+ years ago. I know, I have a 1998 Cannondale CAD 3 that I ride as a rain bike.

Steel = great ride, compliance, ride, heaviest

CF = great road shock absorption, BB stiffness, very light, can be a bit numb feeling

Ti = lighter than steel, 'zingier' than steel, can be made very light too. Ti frames tend to weigh 2.5-3.5 lbs. without fork, a few (like the Litespeed Ghisallo) as light as 2lbs. or less (but that gets VERY pricey indeed).

My Ibis Ti road weighs 3.2 lbs without fork. Pretty average weight for a 3.2/2.5 butted Ti road frame these days. In its day (1995) that was very light. Still builds up into a relatively light road bike (mine weighs 17.5 or so, a few light parts and it would be sub 17. That's real world weight - not 'my bathroom scale' weight often offered on this brain trust.