BroMax

Based on the information now in the public domain, there is a resonable doubt, in my judgement, that the lab findings are conclusive. How often have forensics labs, where the stakes are much higher, been found to be unreliable?

Maybe if I knew the samples were all handled under a double blind protocol and kept under double custody and the procedure monitored from start to finish by third party observers who don't care one way or another about the sport I'd be prepared to say "enough, case closed". Maybe that is how the laboratory works. Can anyone tell me?

Snicklefritz

YEAH!

furiousferret

I'm just as bummed as anyone else about him getting caught, but I'm not going to finger point at the UCI or French. I think its crap that Le Equipe seems to get the results before anyone and there are tons of leaks. It may even get him out of this mess.

My wife is completely shattered by this...we had plans to attend the victory parade in Murrieta.

With as many Phonak riders busted, and all the riders in Operation Puerto I'm starting to believe the whole peloton is doping. Phonak is one of the worst teams in the ProTour and if the drugs serve any advantage it's logical the teams above them (CSC, T-Mobile, Discovery) are doing the same thing.

However, I can't play the 'pity us' role because the Italians (Basso) and the Germans (Ullrich) got it worse, they didn't even get to show.

Lastly, I don't know what the hate is for Euro. If this was a French rider such as Dessel, we would probably have the same attitude.

khuon

S'okay. I got yer back. Topic typo corrected.

MonsterMaxx

what if they spiked the container before he pee'd in it?

FrankBattle 

Am I the only one waiting eagerly for the tell all book that's sure to come of this?

Jed19

In all honesty, those of us who are fans of this sport of cycling know (or suspect) that doping is a very very real part of the sport. It is a very tough sport for professionals, and the movement of really big money into the sport (witness Lance Armstrong's phenomenal success), has assured that pros are gonna do all it takes to "win", including doping.

I really want to believe Landis, but I just can't. I am convinced he cheated. What with the different ridiculous explanations he has floated, and the "exogenous" testosterone.

I am very disappointed and sad, but knowing the history and toughness of the sport, coupled with the huge amount of money at stake, I am not surprised at all at where we are at.

The most likely scenario is this: he saw everything going up in smoke after his disastrous stage 16 ride, he then decided he had to dope to get back into the race. What was at stake was his leadership of the Phonak team, and let's not forget that he faced hip replacement surgery, and he might have concluded that his only chance of winning the tour was at stake.

All in all, a real tragedy for Landis, and sadness for those of us who love the sport, and want to believe in Landis.

Regards,

cyclezealot

I remember reading in a interview about Millar, he likes Metalic and rap. Reason enough to dope. Coldplay's several hit cd's, the whole world must be gay.

'nother

No, but he cheated and he got caught, and deserves to be punished for it. We can't selectively bend rules because they don't matter. When he entered the race he agreed to abide by the rules, and the rules are you cannot have banned substances in your body (whether they may have helped or not). The synthetic testosterone is sufficient. The ratio simply doesn't matter (except that's what tipped them to do the test for synthetic).

merlinextraligh

The same guy that doped the other 8 postivie phonak riders in the last 2 years

awunder

Of course, there wasn't nearly as much discussion when Der Kaiser got tossed at the last minute, not for cheating, but just for being associated with someone who may have facilitated cheating.

Rich22

Well put. However, the reason why i see it this way is because after 7 years of chasing lance, it seems as if the french would do anything to get an american to be positive. People might think its bad publicity but instead it puts bad publicity on american cycling. Thus making the TdF higher ups look good.

khuon

My sentiments exactly. To me, the real contraversy here is the seemingly sloppy work by the lab and the governing body. I've seen better lab procedures in a high school chemistry class. If Floyd cheated then he cheated and should be appropriately punished but the details of the investigation put the investigation itself on trial. This is even more harmful than a cheating rider getting away with things because it puts into question the validity of all the tests on all the riders as well as creates the impression that everyone is a cheater. It brews paranoia in a sense and does harm to everything concerning the sport.

I personally think the B-sample should have been sent out to an independent criminal forensics lab that has a reputation for impartiality as well as tight procedure work. As it stands right now, this whole thing is a joke to everyone except for the people directly involved in the case. Someone needs to throw some credibility back into it all.

Hipcycler

He didn't win the tour....simple. That opened the door to a lot more Americans who are not 'fans' of the sport, but do know about the tour and its results.

'nother

I agree on the idea, but for me the credibility needs to come from the riders and teams -- make it credible for the fans that they are not cheating. The mountain of circumstances, suspect performances, litany of confirmed doping violations, and endless stream of anecdotal reports from the field that everyone or nearly everyone is doping leaves me very disappointed and sad. "If it sounds too good to be true..."

Of course, this is just an opinion. Not enough to "convict" anyone. Fine. I'm not a court of law and my opinions are of little consequence. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't post them here.

If Pro Cycling wants me as a fan, they need to show me they're playing by the rules, and accept responsibility when they don't. They probably don't care, hence I probably won't either.

Martinello

Being an European, I have a hard time understanding the conspiracy theory about French race organizers/laboratories hating American cyclists to extend that they should tamper with their urine/blood samples.

There are professional cyclists from all over the world competing on the roads of Europe, and the problem here is not, that an American has won the TdF 8 years in a row (well, 7 years...). The real problem is, that professional cycling is rotten to the core with a culture of doping and denial dating back almost a century.

In the present day peloton it's considered a bigger offense to launch an attack during p!ss breaks or chasing hard through the ravataillements than shooting up with a wide vareity of banned PED's.

Lance Armstrong rode for Belgian outfit, FL rode for a Swiss team, being Americans did'nt make them better or worse cyclist, but riding for a professional cycling team will most likely make you a very competent doper.

"Wasn't me"
Remember that song with Shaggy and RikRok - deny deny deny and people may forget that you were actually caght red handed. A lot of people have denied their cheating even though the evidience was overwhelming. Take your two year ban and come back riding, and who knows, if you've been a good boy you might even end up as a DS or marketing dude/TV reporter when you hang up your wheels - beats the hell out of confessing and end up running a bike shop selling commuter bikes.

The world of pro cycling is run by people and populated with people who have been actively involved in this grand doping circus. Thus as a professional bike rider, you can't speak openly about the doping, if you want to ensure a career in cycling after you retire. Nobody in the peloton would probably speak to Paul Kimmage, Uwe Ampler or Christophe Bassons today, and people who talk openly about what's going aren't exactly welcome in the peloton.

Bottom line:
I definately agree with lads like EURO, who claim that about 0,5% of the pro rides these are totally clean. Based on the huge amount of positive doping tests and the even more compelling fact, that plenty of rides who NEVER failed a drug test, has been caught in raids/wire taps or due surveillance.

In my days as a bike racer in Denmark I've seen 19 year old guys on amphetamines, people shooting up with synacthen on a regular basis and plenty of anabolic steroids on the loose. It's an insane system right from the amateur ranks to the very top of the system.

The biggest problem is, that the guys at the UCI/national federations have also been part of that system as well guaranteeing that nothing radical never really happens to stop the pharmacological frenzy - just look how far we're gotten since 1998.

For all I care, guys like FL, Der Jan, Basso etc. can shoot up all drugs and homologeous blood transfusions they want, they're adults and have made a *****load of money on it. My concern is with less fortunate guys like Manzano who get's messed up, or even the young hopeful junior riders leaving home at the tender age of 17 for a contract in Italy.

Imagine being 2000 kilometres away from home and your parents, naive and with a DS who wants you to take certain "vitamin supplements". Imagine the DS puts a padlock on the fridge because you need to lose weight. Imagine what happends, when you team can't afford a real doctor to do the "preparation" but has to employ the service of a quack or some soigneur whose medical qualifications comes from watching ER. Imagine those kind of people toying around with the health of young riders. Stuff like that happends in pro cycling, and I would never, ever let my (unborn) kids pursue a career in that world.

Lecterman

Read my post again. I said what he did was wrong. Yes he deserves to be punished. At not time did I imply that he didn't. I was making a point that his performance in that stage should not be dismissed because he took testosterone, because he did something others could have done had they taken the same gamble of an early breakaway.

Rich22

Well put.

Snicklefritz

So if a cyclist gets convicted of doping, they are banned for 2+ years. What makes me sick is how people know the same is happening in baseball, football etc. How come Barry Bonds isn't being banned? What is the current punishment in baseball if someone gets caught? what, a slap on the hand, a fine and back playing in 30 days? or what?

DrPete 

An EXCELLENT post. I think you do a great job countering the "they all dope, why should we care" attitude that seems to abound as well.

Martinello

Failing a "health test" (having a hematocrite above 50%) gets you nothing else but a neat little slap of thw wrist and a 14 days "pause" for "health reasons".

My estimate is, that 95% of riders failing the "health check" are using either EPO or blood doping. 99,9% of the riders failing these test should ask for a refund from their doctors/soigneurs/quack for allowing the HCT to get above 50%

The extensive health surveillance offered by all major teams are not offered because the teams wants to catch the dopers - it's to make sure, that their star riders aren't caught.

How can employ someone for 8-10 years (as in Ullrichs case), soigneurs/DS'/assistents have probably spent more time with Der Jan than his wife(s). Lab work is done year round andthe amount of blood drawn for drug testing/health checks is probably only exceed by the amount of blood drawn/infused for performance enhancing purposes. People from the T-Mobile team now all of sudden remember, that there might have been a few suspicous looking types visiting Jan at his hotel rooms during the races.

For crying out loud - how on earth is it possible NOT to suspect and discover foul play. Needlemarks and the occassional haematoma from IV/SC injections/transfusions, how does that go unnoticed? Apperently, the only ones who actually got smarter after the Festina affair are the teams. They've gotten better at disposing the trash, which is much appreciated by hotel cleaning staff.

Also the doping is no longer traceable to the team, deniability in case of a positive drug test these days is a major issue, and the issue of doping is always (cleverly) presented as an isolated case limited to one individual rider - and not in any way related to the team. Well Phonak had HOW many isolated cases during the last couple of years????

dirt Banshee

This whole thing is really sad. As cycling fans we are the jury of public opinion. The evidence is that he cheated. Conspiracy theory, Amstel Beer, Hypothrodism, Character Witnesses etc are all thin possibilties to refute the weight of carbon isotope proof.

Memo to Floyd, Thanks for providing an oppurtunity to have an interesting discussion with my kids regarding cheating and lying.

'nother

And I was responding to that point. I believe the punishment he deserves is that his performance in the stage and in the entire race should be dismissed. It's cheating. We don't decide football or baseball games based on what "could have happened" when a call is missed (or a wrong call is made). This is the same kind of thing.

merlinextraligh

I don't think much else needs to be said.

I would only add on the french conspiracy theory, when accusations were flying high against Armstrong, He skillfully used anti french sentiment in America, which was the result of France's opposition to invading Iraq, to his advantage to cast doubt on the allegations against him,and the reilability of a french lab. I give credit to Armstrong's PR people. It was an adept PR move,and it sold fairly well in the US. As an expalantion for every postive drug test by an American cyclist its now become shop worn.

TCR

Cool, thanks!