Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Floyd Landis - Is it possible...

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Floyd Landis - Is it possible...

Old 08-05-06, 09:59 PM
  #51  
BroMax
The Other White Meat
 
BroMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Reno
Posts: 605

Bikes: Raleigh Sports 3 speed, Torker T-530

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Based on the information now in the public domain, there is a resonable doubt, in my judgement, that the lab findings are conclusive. How often have forensics labs, where the stakes are much higher, been found to be unreliable?

Maybe if I knew the samples were all handled under a double blind protocol and kept under double custody and the procedure monitored from start to finish by third party observers who don't care one way or another about the sport I'd be prepared to say "enough, case closed". Maybe that is how the laboratory works. Can anyone tell me?
BroMax is offline  
Old 08-05-06, 10:54 PM
  #52  
Snicklefritz
Senior Member
 
Snicklefritz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In the middle of horse country, in The Garden State
Posts: 3,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by steve_wmn
McEwen's big trick isn't drugs it's his Harry Potter invisibility cloak, so that he can hide in the peleton until the last seconds of the race.
YEAH!
Snicklefritz is offline  
Old 08-05-06, 11:51 PM
  #53  
furiousferret 
Senior Member
 
furiousferret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 5,820
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 629 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 25 Posts
I'm just as bummed as anyone else about him getting caught, but I'm not going to finger point at the UCI or French. I think its crap that Le Equipe seems to get the results before anyone and there are tons of leaks. It may even get him out of this mess.

My wife is completely shattered by this...we had plans to attend the victory parade in Murrieta.

With as many Phonak riders busted, and all the riders in Operation Puerto I'm starting to believe the whole peloton is doping. Phonak is one of the worst teams in the ProTour and if the drugs serve any advantage it's logical the teams above them (CSC, T-Mobile, Discovery) are doing the same thing.

However, I can't play the 'pity us' role because the Italians (Basso) and the Germans (Ullrich) got it worse, they didn't even get to show.

Lastly, I don't know what the hate is for Euro. If this was a French rider such as Dessel, we would probably have the same attitude.

Last edited by furiousferret; 08-05-06 at 11:56 PM.
furiousferret is online now  
Old 08-05-06, 11:59 PM
  #54  
khuon
DEADBEEF
 
khuon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Catching his breath alongside a road near Seattle, WA USA
Posts: 12,234

Bikes: 1999 K2 OzM, 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by TCR
Oops, that was supposed to be, "Is it possible...."



Must have been all the whiskey and beer I had with my Froot Loops this morning.
S'okay. I got yer back. Topic typo corrected.
__________________
1999 K2 OzM 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte
"Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send." -- Jon Postel, RFC1122
khuon is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 12:04 AM
  #55  
MonsterMaxx
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
what if they spiked the container before he pee'd in it?
MonsterMaxx is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 12:11 AM
  #56  
FrankBattle 
SilentRider
 
FrankBattle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 2,381

Bikes: Giant TCR Advanced Pro, Trek Domane SLR, Trek Emonda SLR Project One, custom Bingham Built Titanium road bike, custom TYA steel (Taiwan brand), Breezer Venturi, custom Badger Cycles road bike (no longer in business), + a host of other frames

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Am I the only one waiting eagerly for the tell all book that's sure to come of this?
FrankBattle is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 12:53 AM
  #57  
Jed19
Senior Member
 
Jed19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
In all honesty, those of us who are fans of this sport of cycling know (or suspect) that doping is a very very real part of the sport. It is a very tough sport for professionals, and the movement of really big money into the sport (witness Lance Armstrong's phenomenal success), has assured that pros are gonna do all it takes to "win", including doping.

I really want to believe Landis, but I just can't. I am convinced he cheated. What with the different ridiculous explanations he has floated, and the "exogenous" testosterone.

I am very disappointed and sad, but knowing the history and toughness of the sport, coupled with the huge amount of money at stake, I am not surprised at all at where we are at.

The most likely scenario is this: he saw everything going up in smoke after his disastrous stage 16 ride, he then decided he had to dope to get back into the race. What was at stake was his leadership of the Phonak team, and let's not forget that he faced hip replacement surgery, and he might have concluded that his only chance of winning the tour was at stake.

All in all, a real tragedy for Landis, and sadness for those of us who love the sport, and want to believe in Landis.

Regards,
Jed19 is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 01:00 AM
  #58  
cyclezealot
Senior Member
 
cyclezealot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Fallbrook,Calif./Palau del Vidre, France
Posts: 13,192

Bikes: Klein QP, Fuji touring, Surly Cross Check, BCH City bike

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1259 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sincitycycler
What do you think of David Millar, EURO?
I remember reading in a interview about Millar, he likes Metalic and rap. Reason enough to dope. Coldplay's several hit cd's, the whole world must be gay.
cyclezealot is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 08:48 AM
  #59  
'nother
semifreddo amartuerer
 
'nother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 4,599

Bikes: several

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by lecterman
He took a chance and it paid off, plain and simple, he wasn't Superman for a day because he took T.
No, but he cheated and he got caught, and deserves to be punished for it. We can't selectively bend rules because they don't matter. When he entered the race he agreed to abide by the rules, and the rules are you cannot have banned substances in your body (whether they may have helped or not). The synthetic testosterone is sufficient. The ratio simply doesn't matter (except that's what tipped them to do the test for synthetic).
'nother is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 10:06 AM
  #60  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,331

Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 870 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by TCR
1) Somebody in the Phonak camp did this to Landis without him knowing it?

The same guy that doped the other 8 postivie phonak riders in the last 2 years
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 10:24 AM
  #61  
awunder
Senior Member
 
awunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 269

Bikes: 2001 LeMond Zurich, 1990 Peugeot Bordeaux/105, 1986 Cannondale, 1972 Peugeot UO8... oh, I've lost count.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Of course, there wasn't nearly as much discussion when Der Kaiser got tossed at the last minute, not for cheating, but just for being associated with someone who may have facilitated cheating.
awunder is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 10:30 AM
  #62  
Rich22
Senior Member
 
Rich22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Easton, CT
Posts: 358

Bikes: 2005 Trek 1200

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BroMax
Based on the information now in the public domain, there is a resonable doubt, in my judgement, that the lab findings are conclusive. How often have forensics labs, where the stakes are much higher, been found to be unreliable?

Maybe if I knew the samples were all handled under a double blind protocol and kept under double custody and the procedure monitored from start to finish by third party observers who don't care one way or another about the sport I'd be prepared to say "enough, case closed". Maybe that is how the laboratory works. Can anyone tell me?
Well put. However, the reason why i see it this way is because after 7 years of chasing lance, it seems as if the french would do anything to get an american to be positive. People might think its bad publicity but instead it puts bad publicity on american cycling. Thus making the TdF higher ups look good.
Rich22 is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 10:42 AM
  #63  
khuon
DEADBEEF
 
khuon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Catching his breath alongside a road near Seattle, WA USA
Posts: 12,234

Bikes: 1999 K2 OzM, 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BroMax
Based on the information now in the public domain, there is a resonable doubt, in my judgement, that the lab findings are conclusive. How often have forensics labs, where the stakes are much higher, been found to be unreliable?

Maybe if I knew the samples were all handled under a double blind protocol and kept under double custody and the procedure monitored from start to finish by third party observers who don't care one way or another about the sport I'd be prepared to say "enough, case closed". Maybe that is how the laboratory works. Can anyone tell me?
My sentiments exactly. To me, the real contraversy here is the seemingly sloppy work by the lab and the governing body. I've seen better lab procedures in a high school chemistry class. If Floyd cheated then he cheated and should be appropriately punished but the details of the investigation put the investigation itself on trial. This is even more harmful than a cheating rider getting away with things because it puts into question the validity of all the tests on all the riders as well as creates the impression that everyone is a cheater. It brews paranoia in a sense and does harm to everything concerning the sport.

I personally think the B-sample should have been sent out to an independent criminal forensics lab that has a reputation for impartiality as well as tight procedure work. As it stands right now, this whole thing is a joke to everyone except for the people directly involved in the case. Someone needs to throw some credibility back into it all.
__________________
1999 K2 OzM 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte
"Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send." -- Jon Postel, RFC1122
khuon is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 11:26 AM
  #64  
Hipcycler
OCP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: MILWAUKEE
Posts: 6,289

Bikes: The kind with two wheels

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by awunder
Of course, there wasn't nearly as much discussion when Der Kaiser got tossed at the last minute, not for cheating, but just for being associated with someone who may have facilitated cheating.
He didn't win the tour....simple. That opened the door to a lot more Americans who are not 'fans' of the sport, but do know about the tour and its results.
Hipcycler is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 11:35 AM
  #65  
'nother
semifreddo amartuerer
 
'nother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 4,599

Bikes: several

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by khuon
Someone needs to throw some credibility back into it all.
I agree on the idea, but for me the credibility needs to come from the riders and teams -- make it credible for the fans that they are not cheating. The mountain of circumstances, suspect performances, litany of confirmed doping violations, and endless stream of anecdotal reports from the field that everyone or nearly everyone is doping leaves me very disappointed and sad. "If it sounds too good to be true..."

Of course, this is just an opinion. Not enough to "convict" anyone. Fine. I'm not a court of law and my opinions are of little consequence. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't post them here.

If Pro Cycling wants me as a fan, they need to show me they're playing by the rules, and accept responsibility when they don't. They probably don't care, hence I probably won't either.
'nother is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 11:48 AM
  #66  
Martinello
Junior Member
 
Martinello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 16

Bikes: Canyon F10 w. D/A and carbon-porn, Ghost HTX7500 XT-stuff, Fort ROT winter-rig

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Being an European, I have a hard time understanding the conspiracy theory about French race organizers/laboratories hating American cyclists to extend that they should tamper with their urine/blood samples.

There are professional cyclists from all over the world competing on the roads of Europe, and the problem here is not, that an American has won the TdF 8 years in a row (well, 7 years...). The real problem is, that professional cycling is rotten to the core with a culture of doping and denial dating back almost a century.

In the present day peloton it's considered a bigger offense to launch an attack during p!ss breaks or chasing hard through the ravataillements than shooting up with a wide vareity of banned PED's.

Lance Armstrong rode for Belgian outfit, FL rode for a Swiss team, being Americans did'nt make them better or worse cyclist, but riding for a professional cycling team will most likely make you a very competent doper.

"Wasn't me"
Remember that song with Shaggy and RikRok - deny deny deny and people may forget that you were actually caght red handed. A lot of people have denied their cheating even though the evidience was overwhelming. Take your two year ban and come back riding, and who knows, if you've been a good boy you might even end up as a DS or marketing dude/TV reporter when you hang up your wheels - beats the hell out of confessing and end up running a bike shop selling commuter bikes.

The world of pro cycling is run by people and populated with people who have been actively involved in this grand doping circus. Thus as a professional bike rider, you can't speak openly about the doping, if you want to ensure a career in cycling after you retire. Nobody in the peloton would probably speak to Paul Kimmage, Uwe Ampler or Christophe Bassons today, and people who talk openly about what's going aren't exactly welcome in the peloton.

Bottom line:
I definately agree with lads like EURO, who claim that about 0,5% of the pro rides these are totally clean. Based on the huge amount of positive doping tests and the even more compelling fact, that plenty of rides who NEVER failed a drug test, has been caught in raids/wire taps or due surveillance.

In my days as a bike racer in Denmark I've seen 19 year old guys on amphetamines, people shooting up with synacthen on a regular basis and plenty of anabolic steroids on the loose. It's an insane system right from the amateur ranks to the very top of the system.

The biggest problem is, that the guys at the UCI/national federations have also been part of that system as well guaranteeing that nothing radical never really happens to stop the pharmacological frenzy - just look how far we're gotten since 1998.

For all I care, guys like FL, Der Jan, Basso etc. can shoot up all drugs and ****logeous blood transfusions they want, they're adults and have made a *****load of money on it. My concern is with less fortunate guys like Manzano who get's messed up, or even the young hopeful junior riders leaving home at the tender age of 17 for a contract in Italy.

Imagine being 2000 kilometres away from home and your parents, naive and with a DS who wants you to take certain "vitamin supplements". Imagine the DS puts a padlock on the fridge because you need to lose weight. Imagine what happends, when you team can't afford a real doctor to do the "preparation" but has to employ the service of a quack or some soigneur whose medical qualifications comes from watching ER. Imagine those kind of people toying around with the health of young riders. Stuff like that happends in pro cycling, and I would never, ever let my (unborn) kids pursue a career in that world.
Martinello is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 12:12 PM
  #67  
Lecterman
The Guadfather
 
Lecterman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Fart Worth
Posts: 1,090

Bikes: Trek, Centurion, Kuwahara coming soon

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 'nother
No, but he cheated and he got caught, and deserves to be punished for it. We can't selectively bend rules because they don't matter. When he entered the race he agreed to abide by the rules, and the rules are you cannot have banned substances in your body (whether they may have helped or not). The synthetic testosterone is sufficient. The ratio simply doesn't matter (except that's what tipped them to do the test for synthetic).
Read my post again. I said what he did was wrong. Yes he deserves to be punished. At not time did I imply that he didn't. I was making a point that his performance in that stage should not be dismissed because he took testosterone, because he did something others could have done had they taken the same gamble of an early breakaway.
__________________
Are you a registered member? Why not? click here to register. Its free, and only takes 27 seconds!
Help out the forums, abide by our community guidelines.
"Minor bun engine, made Benny Lava!!!"
Lecterman is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 12:29 PM
  #68  
Rich22
Senior Member
 
Rich22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Easton, CT
Posts: 358

Bikes: 2005 Trek 1200

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Martinello
Being an European, I have a hard time understanding the conspiracy theory about French race organizers/laboratories hating American cyclists to extend that they should tamper with their urine/blood samples.

There are professional cyclists from all over the world competing on the roads of Europe, and the problem here is not, that an American has won the TdF 8 years in a row (well, 7 years...). The real problem is, that professional cycling is rotten to the core with a culture of doping and denial dating back almost a century.

In the present day peloton it's considered a bigger offense to launch an attack during p!ss breaks or chasing hard through the ravataillements than shooting up with a wide vareity of banned PED's.

Lance Armstrong rode for Belgian outfit, FL rode for a Swiss team, being Americans did'nt make them better or worse cyclist, but riding for a professional cycling team will most likely make you a very competent doper.

"Wasn't me"
Remember that song with Shaggy and RikRok - deny deny deny and people may forget that you were actually caght red handed. A lot of people have denied their cheating even though the evidience was overwhelming. Take your two year ban and come back riding, and who knows, if you've been a good boy you might even end up as a DS or marketing dude/TV reporter when you hang up your wheels - beats the hell out of confessing and end up running a bike shop selling commuter bikes.

The world of pro cycling is run by people and populated with people who have been actively involved in this grand doping circus. Thus as a professional bike rider, you can't speak openly about the doping, if you want to ensure a career in cycling after you retire. Nobody in the peloton would probably speak to Paul Kimmage, Uwe Ampler or Christophe Bassons today, and people who talk openly about what's going aren't exactly welcome in the peloton.

Bottom line:
I definately agree with lads like EURO, who claim that about 0,5% of the pro rides these are totally clean. Based on the huge amount of positive doping tests and the even more compelling fact, that plenty of rides who NEVER failed a drug test, has been caught in raids/wire taps or due surveillance.

In my days as a bike racer in Denmark I've seen 19 year old guys on amphetamines, people shooting up with synacthen on a regular basis and plenty of anabolic steroids on the loose. It's an insane system right from the amateur ranks to the very top of the system.

The biggest problem is, that the guys at the UCI/national federations have also been part of that system as well guaranteeing that nothing radical never really happens to stop the pharmacological frenzy - just look how far we're gotten since 1998.

For all I care, guys like FL, Der Jan, Basso etc. can shoot up all drugs and ****logeous blood transfusions they want, they're adults and have made a *****load of money on it. My concern is with less fortunate guys like Manzano who get's messed up, or even the young hopeful junior riders leaving home at the tender age of 17 for a contract in Italy.

Imagine being 2000 kilometres away from home and your parents, naive and with a DS who wants you to take certain "vitamin supplements". Imagine the DS puts a padlock on the fridge because you need to lose weight. Imagine what happends, when you team can't afford a real doctor to do the "preparation" but has to employ the service of a quack or some soigneur whose medical qualifications comes from watching ER. Imagine those kind of people toying around with the health of young riders. Stuff like that happends in pro cycling, and I would never, ever let my (unborn) kids pursue a career in that world.

Well put.
Rich22 is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 12:33 PM
  #69  
Snicklefritz
Senior Member
 
Snicklefritz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In the middle of horse country, in The Garden State
Posts: 3,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
So if a cyclist gets convicted of doping, they are banned for 2+ years. What makes me sick is how people know the same is happening in baseball, football etc. How come Barry Bonds isn't being banned? What is the current punishment in baseball if someone gets caught? what, a slap on the hand, a fine and back playing in 30 days? or what?
Snicklefritz is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 12:52 PM
  #70  
DrPete 
Dirt-riding heretic
 
DrPete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Posts: 17,413

Bikes: Lynskey R230/Red, Blue Triad SL/Red, Cannondale Scalpel 3/X9

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Martinello
Being an European, I have a hard time understanding the conspiracy theory about French race organizers/laboratories hating American cyclists to extend that they should tamper with their urine/blood samples.

There are professional cyclists from all over the world competing on the roads of Europe, and the problem here is not, that an American has won the TdF 8 years in a row (well, 7 years...). The real problem is, that professional cycling is rotten to the core with a culture of doping and denial dating back almost a century.

In the present day peloton it's considered a bigger offense to launch an attack during p!ss breaks or chasing hard through the ravataillements than shooting up with a wide vareity of banned PED's.

Lance Armstrong rode for Belgian outfit, FL rode for a Swiss team, being Americans did'nt make them better or worse cyclist, but riding for a professional cycling team will most likely make you a very competent doper.

"Wasn't me"
Remember that song with Shaggy and RikRok - deny deny deny and people may forget that you were actually caght red handed. A lot of people have denied their cheating even though the evidience was overwhelming. Take your two year ban and come back riding, and who knows, if you've been a good boy you might even end up as a DS or marketing dude/TV reporter when you hang up your wheels - beats the hell out of confessing and end up running a bike shop selling commuter bikes.

The world of pro cycling is run by people and populated with people who have been actively involved in this grand doping circus. Thus as a professional bike rider, you can't speak openly about the doping, if you want to ensure a career in cycling after you retire. Nobody in the peloton would probably speak to Paul Kimmage, Uwe Ampler or Christophe Bassons today, and people who talk openly about what's going aren't exactly welcome in the peloton.

Bottom line:
I definately agree with lads like EURO, who claim that about 0,5% of the pro rides these are totally clean. Based on the huge amount of positive doping tests and the even more compelling fact, that plenty of rides who NEVER failed a drug test, has been caught in raids/wire taps or due surveillance.

In my days as a bike racer in Denmark I've seen 19 year old guys on amphetamines, people shooting up with synacthen on a regular basis and plenty of anabolic steroids on the loose. It's an insane system right from the amateur ranks to the very top of the system.

The biggest problem is, that the guys at the UCI/national federations have also been part of that system as well guaranteeing that nothing radical never really happens to stop the pharmacological frenzy - just look how far we're gotten since 1998.

For all I care, guys like FL, Der Jan, Basso etc. can shoot up all drugs and ****logeous blood transfusions they want, they're adults and have made a *****load of money on it. My concern is with less fortunate guys like Manzano who get's messed up, or even the young hopeful junior riders leaving home at the tender age of 17 for a contract in Italy.

Imagine being 2000 kilometres away from home and your parents, naive and with a DS who wants you to take certain "vitamin supplements". Imagine the DS puts a padlock on the fridge because you need to lose weight. Imagine what happends, when you team can't afford a real doctor to do the "preparation" but has to employ the service of a quack or some soigneur whose medical qualifications comes from watching ER. Imagine those kind of people toying around with the health of young riders. Stuff like that happends in pro cycling, and I would never, ever let my (unborn) kids pursue a career in that world.
An EXCELLENT post. I think you do a great job countering the "they all dope, why should we care" attitude that seems to abound as well.
__________________
"Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."
DrPete is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 01:06 PM
  #71  
Martinello
Junior Member
 
Martinello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 16

Bikes: Canyon F10 w. D/A and carbon-porn, Ghost HTX7500 XT-stuff, Fort ROT winter-rig

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Failing a "health test" (having a hematocrite above 50%) gets you nothing else but a neat little slap of thw wrist and a 14 days "pause" for "health reasons".

My estimate is, that 95% of riders failing the "health check" are using either EPO or blood doping. 99,9% of the riders failing these test should ask for a refund from their doctors/soigneurs/quack for allowing the HCT to get above 50%

The extensive health surveillance offered by all major teams are not offered because the teams wants to catch the dopers - it's to make sure, that their star riders aren't caught.

How can employ someone for 8-10 years (as in Ullrichs case), soigneurs/DS'/assistents have probably spent more time with Der Jan than his wife(s). Lab work is done year round andthe amount of blood drawn for drug testing/health checks is probably only exceed by the amount of blood drawn/infused for performance enhancing purposes. People from the T-Mobile team now all of sudden remember, that there might have been a few suspicous looking types visiting Jan at his hotel rooms during the races.

For crying out loud - how on earth is it possible NOT to suspect and discover foul play. Needlemarks and the occassional haematoma from IV/SC injections/transfusions, how does that go unnoticed? Apperently, the only ones who actually got smarter after the Festina affair are the teams. They've gotten better at disposing the trash, which is much appreciated by hotel cleaning staff.

Also the doping is no longer traceable to the team, deniability in case of a positive drug test these days is a major issue, and the issue of doping is always (cleverly) presented as an isolated case limited to one individual rider - and not in any way related to the team. Well Phonak had HOW many isolated cases during the last couple of years????
Martinello is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 01:27 PM
  #72  
dirt Banshee
Are you fast or fat?
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 27

Bikes: Litespeed Arenberg

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
This whole thing is really sad. As cycling fans we are the jury of public opinion. The evidence is that he cheated. Conspiracy theory, Amstel Beer, Hypothrodism, Character Witnesses etc are all thin possibilties to refute the weight of carbon isotope proof.

Memo to Floyd, Thanks for providing an oppurtunity to have an interesting discussion with my kids regarding cheating and lying.
dirt Banshee is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 02:57 PM
  #73  
'nother
semifreddo amartuerer
 
'nother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 4,599

Bikes: several

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by lecterman
Read my post again. I said what he did was wrong. Yes he deserves to be punished. At not time did I imply that he didn't. I was making a point that his performance in that stage should not be dismissed because he took testosterone, because he did something others could have done had they taken the same gamble of an early breakaway.
And I was responding to that point. I believe the punishment he deserves is that his performance in the stage and in the entire race should be dismissed. It's cheating. We don't decide football or baseball games based on what "could have happened" when a call is missed (or a wrong call is made). This is the same kind of thing.
'nother is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 03:03 PM
  #74  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,331

Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 870 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Martinello
Being an European, I have a hard time understanding the conspiracy theory about French race organizers/laboratories hating American cyclists to extend that they should tamper with their urine/blood samples.

There are professional cyclists from all over the world competing on the roads of Europe, and the problem here is not, that an American has won the TdF 8 years in a row (well, 7 years...). The real problem is, that professional cycling is rotten to the core with a culture of doping and denial dating back almost a century.

In the present day peloton it's considered a bigger offense to launch an attack during p!ss breaks or chasing hard through the ravataillements than shooting up with a wide vareity of banned PED's.

Lance Armstrong rode for Belgian outfit, FL rode for a Swiss team, being Americans did'nt make them better or worse cyclist, but riding for a professional cycling team will most likely make you a very competent doper.

"Wasn't me"
Remember that song with Shaggy and RikRok - deny deny deny and people may forget that you were actually caght red handed. A lot of people have denied their cheating even though the evidience was overwhelming. Take your two year ban and come back riding, and who knows, if you've been a good boy you might even end up as a DS or marketing dude/TV reporter when you hang up your wheels - beats the hell out of confessing and end up running a bike shop selling commuter bikes.

The world of pro cycling is run by people and populated with people who have been actively involved in this grand doping circus. Thus as a professional bike rider, you can't speak openly about the doping, if you want to ensure a career in cycling after you retire. Nobody in the peloton would probably speak to Paul Kimmage, Uwe Ampler or Christophe Bassons today, and people who talk openly about what's going aren't exactly welcome in the peloton.

Bottom line:
I definately agree with lads like EURO, who claim that about 0,5% of the pro rides these are totally clean. Based on the huge amount of positive doping tests and the even more compelling fact, that plenty of rides who NEVER failed a drug test, has been caught in raids/wire taps or due surveillance.

In my days as a bike racer in Denmark I've seen 19 year old guys on amphetamines, people shooting up with synacthen on a regular basis and plenty of anabolic steroids on the loose. It's an insane system right from the amateur ranks to the very top of the system.

The biggest problem is, that the guys at the UCI/national federations have also been part of that system as well guaranteeing that nothing radical never really happens to stop the pharmacological frenzy - just look how far we're gotten since 1998.

For all I care, guys like FL, Der Jan, Basso etc. can shoot up all drugs and ****logeous blood transfusions they want, they're adults and have made a *****load of money on it. My concern is with less fortunate guys like Manzano who get's messed up, or even the young hopeful junior riders leaving home at the tender age of 17 for a contract in Italy.

Imagine being 2000 kilometres away from home and your parents, naive and with a DS who wants you to take certain "vitamin supplements". Imagine the DS puts a padlock on the fridge because you need to lose weight. Imagine what happends, when you team can't afford a real doctor to do the "preparation" but has to employ the service of a quack or some soigneur whose medical qualifications comes from watching ER. Imagine those kind of people toying around with the health of young riders. Stuff like that happends in pro cycling, and I would never, ever let my (unborn) kids pursue a career in that world.
I don't think much else needs to be said.

I would only add on the french conspiracy theory, when accusations were flying high against Armstrong, He skillfully used anti french sentiment in America, which was the result of France's opposition to invading Iraq, to his advantage to cast doubt on the allegations against him,and the reilability of a french lab. I give credit to Armstrong's PR people. It was an adept PR move,and it sold fairly well in the US. As an expalantion for every postive drug test by an American cyclist its now become shop worn.

Last edited by merlinextraligh; 08-06-06 at 03:08 PM.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 08-06-06, 06:25 PM
  #75  
TCR
Riding Heavens Highway
Thread Starter
 
TCR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 1,778

Bikes: '04 Giant TCR

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by khuon
S'okay. I got yer back. Topic typo corrected.
Cool, thanks!
__________________
http://vvbc.us
TCR is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.