vobra

been cycling seriously for a few months and i was just wondering what most people do here when it is their turn to take a pull.
i have read that it is better to take a longer pull than to take a pull "up a notch" in regarding to the pace that has been set.
my main question is: is it ok for the puller to be in the drops when it is his/her turn? of course we are in the drops during a downhill section, but on a flat is it poor etiquette to be in the drops when taking a pull??

thanks for your input, i do know that everyone had thier own cycling style.

eippo1

It's very annoying when someone ups the pace because it gaps the rider behind them and the whole idea of the paceline is to save energy. So if the 2nd rider in line and everyone behind them suddenly has to jump to get back on the wheel of the guy in front, then that sucks. It will also be a waste of extra energy for the guy upping the pace.
As for pulling in the drops, it really doesn't matter. I'm more comfortable racing in the drops, so I often find that I'm in them when pulling. I get more power on flats in the drops and so I view it as more beneficial for the group if I can go faster even if the guy directly behind me gets a slight wind penalty.

hockeyteeth

I assume you have been advised on issues affecting speed fluctuations while pulling? For example, adjusting your position on the saddle while pulling could make you slow down enough to cause a collision.

As far as etiquette, I would recommend asking the group you ride with how they want you to ride.

terrymorse 

I try to remember to do a couple of things when taking a pull:

1. Count pedal revolutions. This keeps me from taking too long or too short a pull. I usually count to 100, but I'll adjust that to match what everyone else is doing.

2. Raise the effort very smoothly and gradually. One obviously works harder when on the front, but instantly bumping up the effort when the person in front pulls off may cause gaps. If you slowly increase the effort, the person behind you can stay on your wheel. Be smooth, your fellow riders will be grateful.

3. Be aware of changes in grade. I have a bad habit of dropping riders when the road turns up, even though I try not to. I'll glance back frequently to see if the line is staying together.

urbanknight

I almost always pull in the drops. If the purpose of a paceline is to draft, it just makes sense to be aero. The person behind you gets plenty of draft, and can easily switch to drops if s/he needs more help.

VegaVixen

+1 on TM's three points. And never keep pulling long enough to start slowing down. Pull off before that happens.

Re the drops, I say whatever feels good to you, and doesn't appreciably change the pace. If you're worried about how much or how little draft you're providing, then sit up more to give the one behind you a little more break from the wind, but expect to pull off a little sooner.

vobra

sweet, thanks. drops for meeeee it is. 5'6" 150lbs 29in waist... not someone you want to draft behind, but too bad. yeah yeah, i'll lose those few pounds soon.

Ritterview

I get all enthusiastic when it is my turn to pull, and before I know it I've dropped everyone. To combat this tendency I installed an Italian Road Bike Mirror, so I can keep tabs on the riders behind. Maybe when I get more experience, I'll not need it, but I need it now.

timmyquest

That's pretty slick...seems pretty small to be effective though...you say it works?

Ritterview

It is just big enough. It is just large enough to see any cars and the churning legs of the rider behind you. You need have normal sized legs. If you have awe-inspiring Cypress-style quadriceps (or Clydesdale tree trunks), all you'll see is your leg.

obra3

2nd eippo and tm. Try to keep it as smooth as possible. One time I was in a paceline with 3 other guys. The guy in front of me would always accelerate as he got to the front, leaving me to waste energy getting back on his wheel and reducing my recovery time. I pulled him aside later and let him know that he needed to keep a consistent tempo. If he was in a race situation, we'd drop him like a hot potato. Also... it's considerate for the person who just finished their turn. If you accelerate, it makes it tougher for the person trying to get back into the line. as far as positioning goes- it's really up to you and what you feel like. If the pace is pretty mild and you feel better on the hoods, then by all means, hang out on the hoods. If it's faster, drop are good. As TM said, beware of grade changes- easy way to measure it- when you're at the front and it goes slightly uphill, maintain the same effort (don't worry about speed).

slvoid

It depends on the group. If you latch on to the group, you should've seen how long each person takes a pull. On the local loop, the guys take about 45 sec to 1 minute pulls then switch out. If there are fewer of us, like 2-3, I usually take like a 2-3 minute pull then drop back.

Keeping the pace consistent is good. It also helps to make a shoulder, head, or hand motion to let the other rider know that your turn is over so when you move aside, they don't follow you. Don't just stop pedaling, keep pedaling at the same speed, move aside, check to make sure there's no one behind you in like, an echelon, and then move back and regroup.

Make sure if you're in front to point out things in the road for people, tell em when you're preparing to slow or making any drastic turns.

waterrockets 

Good points above. Regarding pull duration, it seems like one full rotation of the group every 2 - 3 minutes is about right. This means 2-3 minutes between when you start your current pull and when you start your next pull. If you have 10 people pulling, 12-15 second pulls are perfect. If you only have two people pulling, 1-minute pulls feel about right. This requires some communication in the group, and will vary if there are large fitness variations in the group (faster riders pull longer).

R900

John Howard taught us to take very brief pulls, less then 10 seconds, with a decent sized group. It looks like two lines, with the outside line falling back. He said we should count the riders so you can time getting back in line without creating a gap. That said my experience is all over the place, but I've never road with a pace line rotating that fast. Most pulls seem 1 to a couple minutes depending on the group size.

obra3

Just don't pull till you blow up- seen that many times. If you're not feeling that great, do a shorter pull. A lot of factors go into how long for a pull as stated above- wind, pack size, rider fitness, time into your ride, fatigue level etc. Just remember rule #1- don't pull till you implode.

----

ahem... made up my mind... explode.

slvoid

Make up your freaking mind!

oilman_15106

If you can not find the sweet spot with a helmet mirror this style does work.

waterrockets 

"First he's gonna sh*t, then he's gonna kill us!"

/obscure?

ericgu

My advice:

1) Look at your speedometer when you're in second position, and aim to keep that speed when you're on the front
2) Aim to keep your *effort* constant, not your speed. This is where most people mess up, and it's extremely aggravating to finish a pull at the front, pull off, and then have the group fly up a roller. Remember that people are saving effort on the flat, but when you get to a hill, they aren't saving as much, so don't kill them there.
3) Double pacelines are great if you have a skilled group that can handle it.
4) Stay at the front for the designated time (typically not that long), or less if you can't keep the effort up. Most groups are happy for you to be included even if you pull 30 seconds rather than two minutes (for example).
5) *Always* take your turn at the front unless you're specifically told not to by the group.
6) It's all about the group, not about you.

Being in the drops is fine if you can keep the effort level and have good handling skills.

Nachoman

I'm very frequently in a limited two man pace line. Depending on who is feeling strong that day, our pulls generally last between one and two minutes.

Bobby Lex

Do the math. You have a group of 10 cyclists in a paceline doing a comfortable 18 mph. Rider #1 comes to the front and raises the speed "up a notch", say 1/2 mph, when it is his turn to pull. Then rider #2 does the same thing. Then rider #3 does the same thing, etc. etc. By the time rider #10 takes a pull the group is now doing 23 mph. When everyone has taken 2 pulls the speed of the group is up to 28 mph. By the time everyone has taken 3 pulls the group is doing 33 mph. Inside of about 1/2 hour the group would be going a bajillion miles an hour!

Keep it steady and smooth and you will be loved and adored by the group.

Pulling it "up a notch" or "down a notch" or any other action that causes gapping, surging, braking, and interruptions in the rythym of the group, will get you despised.

Bob

merlinextraligh

In my experience, this sort of organization only tends to happen on training rides with racers.

For whatever reason, the fast tourist/fitness rider types seem to want to take long pulls. Almost like its a competition to see who pulls the longest.

The rotating double pace line you describe is very efficient into a quatering headwind. Unfortunately its difficult to organize if the riders aren't familiar with it.

Bob Ross

+1

I really have to concentrate on this one; my natural tendency is to try to *maintain* the pace as the grade gets steeper, but I've had countless riders behind me chew me out for this! A coach suggested I should try to maintain the same effort rather than the same speed, and this certainly seems to make the riders behind me much happier.

Well there ya go... great minds think alike!

Okay, we've got a quorum. Motion passed. (And next time I'll read the entire thread before posting a redundant response!)

Epco

Where can you get one of these mirrors?

waterrockets 

If you can time it right, put the weaker riders in the front on the climbs. They wouldn't be getting much draft benefit anyway, they can ride at their own pace, fast riders will still be recovering, and the fast guys can open up on the descent while the slower guys enjoy the sweet draft.

If it's a 3% or greater descent, You can pretty much go as hard as you want and not have to worry about the others (unless the fitness variance is huge). Just don't accelerate hard...