late

I grew up in the Fifties. We would ride our bikes all over, and just drop them.
I pretty much still do that, but I lock them to something handy first. My bike has got scratches all over. It got scratched leaning against a boulder at Bear Mtn,
another from slipping and banging into metal when I was working on it, scratches from signposts,etc.

I don't think I could do that with a carbon bike. Funny thing, I don't see carbon
at all when I park. Sometimes we stop at Wild Oats for a coffee or a sandwich. Just steel there, with an occasional Cannondale, same at Whole Foods. I see them out riding, but the more out into the countryside I get, the fewer I see.

Just how much do you have to baby them?

botto 

Can't say that I baby mine too much, or at least anymore than I would a 1.5 year old bike.

As far as dropping it, or locking it up at work, I wouldn't do that with my 14 year old Cannondale either.

Now, my pos city bike, sure, but that's why I have it.

tcs

Rider on titanium frame won the ToF in : 1973
Riders on aluminum frames won the ToF in: 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998
Riders on carbon fiber frames won the ToF in: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007

Who can spot the trend? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

TCS

tcs

The duck comes down, he wins $20.

TCS

botto 

you forgot 1990 -

Aikidoka

I dont have solid facts but I beleive Russian Ti tubing (inexpensive) contributed to a boom some years ago in USA Ti bikes/frames. Companies like Airborne (If I am not mistaken) capitalized on this and "re-introduced" Ti as an affordable alternative. I don't see Airborne around, out of business? Anyways, the high-end bike market has always been driven by "weight/performance ratios" and as CF is the lightest/stiffest stuff out there right now, so its in the limelight. I dont have facts but I suspect we will start seeing more Kevlar (and similar) in CF frames and nano-technology as it progresses (Easton I beleive already has something here for CF bike frames). Something tells me Ti will make a come-back but it will probably have to be as more mainstream/factory produced as opposed to high-end custom (aka Merlin/Seven). I would place my bet on composite technology (CF and the like) as tomorrow's mainstay for bikes. I agree that Ti is superb for bike frames. Its a matter of dealers/makers being successful at marketing their Ti bikes to the right market, guys like me who dont race, want long term return on investment, style,class and proven durability. Ti bikes dont break as a rule.

Merger/acquisitions are very tricky business, it either makes you stronger or weaker, rarely the same. An acquisition is an attempt to control marketshare. In some cases a planned obsolesence of one company (end it over time) to further control the market by the surviving entity. If executive leadership and planning are wise, it works, if not, it gets ugly. Cannondale's foray into ATV's and especially off-road motorcycles is an example (altho an expansion), it threw the company into serious trouble. I dont know particulars of who bought who in the Ti bike world so I cant comment. I am told by my very savvy LBS owner that Cannondale this year has only 2 all-aluminum bikes in their higher-end lineup, the rest are CF...that tells me something.

2 parting notes...www.habcycles is very interesting. Looks like very nice Ti frames by a couple of engineer types who have their technology well thought out. Frames made in pacific rim shops using the more affordable Ti grade tubing. $795 a pop is excellent and I hear the frames ride very well. Second is Mike from BD has mentioned producing Ti frames, should be interesting (and always controversial) to see where that ends up.

cheers,

k

Aikidoka

oooppsss...

That's www.habcycles.com

sorry

k

botto 

merlinextraligh

I'm on my second Merlin Extralight, and have ridden them for 11 years, but I have to say I prefer riding my CF bike. Not only is it lighter, its much stiffer, and handles better.

Aikidoka

Thanks botto..been a while since I got involved in forums. If I could only find my correct-tape.

BillyD

Data missing . . . TdF was cancelled throughout the rest of the seventies and eighties?

. . . . and I'm assuming "ToF" is TdF.

akatsuki

CF has huge advantages in production scalability which Ti does not possess. The demand just keeps increasing and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. From car production to golf clubs to just about everything else...

So I will not be surprised when even low end bikes are made from CF molds- it will not be too long before a $100 Walmart bicycle is made out of a mold once production capacity ramps up further. I imagine then you will see hard-core OCPs switch back to Ti because of the snob appeal.

DasProfezzional

(Quoted for truth.) This is just silly. The bikes that Tours are won on represent about a millionth of a percent of bikes sold, and a carbon frame winning the Tour says nothing about the worth of carbon as a frame material in general, and less about its longevity and resilience.

Furthermore, while I can't find any Tour record that I can quote, you made up those TdF figures. Titanium wasn't widely available as a frame material until the late 1980s: 1986 to be precise. Before then, a titanium frame needed to be heavier than a steel one if it were to have comparable stiffness. What's more, effective technologies for welding aluminum into bicycle frames didn't even exist in 1973, and welding titanium into frames was even further away.

deskjockey

My materialistic nature causes me to cring when I read such threads. Nevertheless, I am happy w/ my Merlin Works CR and I imagine I'll continue to be pleased even though there may be less Ti frames on the road. From what it is worth, however, a marketing guy on roadbikereview.com last year discussed Litespeed/Merlin's buyout by an investment group. He indicated we should "stay tuned" for a new marketing and updates from Merlin. A year seemed like enough time to me and their silence does not inspire confidence.

big john

https://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA...dyne_titan.htm
Teledyne Titan bikes were ridden in the RAAM, but most of them broke, due to the fact that they were commercially pure titanium, not the alloys we have now. They also couldn't cut bottom bracket threads in the shell, so they used pinch bolts on the spindle. A friend has one, he brings it out rarely.
The bikes in the TDF are the bikes supplied by the sponsers, I think the winner would still win regardless of which bike he was on.

sixtyten

Doesn't Litespeed own Quintana Roo? It's not like they're completely removed from CF production.

edzo

IIRC the only reason those litespeed road bikes had a lot of issues breaking at the steerer were production problems with a batch of frames. incorrect welding environment. they were mistakes. a 'done correctly' Ti frame just will not bust. it will bend, or dent. that is all.

MrCrassic 

Anyone heard of Boron being used on bicycles? I know it is being used for wheels; are they expanding this to frames as well?

$ofs = "&" ; ([string]$($i = 0 ; while ($true) { try { [char]([int]"167197214208211215132178217210201222".substring($i,3) - 100) ; $i =
 $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

Jefferito

Airbus has the A380 (just about to FINALLY enter service several years late), but the competition to the Boeing 787 is the A350, which is being designed with a large percentage of its airframe being carbon fiber as the 787 is. The 787 has achieved sales success like no other airplane in history, so yes, it is going to make a dent in the availability, and probably the price as well, of carbon fiber.

Personally, I am a fan of titanium, but I'm not holding my breath for the prices to come way down, or even down at all. This stuff is very difficult to weld properly and thus is very labor intensive, but it also requires equipment that is very expensive for the welding process which requires an inert gas environment (argon?) IIRC. Titanium is also somewhat scarce as previously mentioned, and is heavily used in aerospace, which is how Litespeed got started.

While I have heard of titanium bicycle frames cracking, it usually is at a weld joint, not elsewhere, so I believe the material itself is quite durable. OTOH, I know someone who cracked a CF Trek frame at the BB shell just through pedal force on a frame that was ridden less than 5,000 miles. Trek replaced it immediately with no problem, and AFAIK, the second frame has been fine. Admittedly, my friend is a big guy of well over six feet and 200 lbs and rides over 3,500 miles every year.

My biggest concern with a CF bike is knowing whether or not it's damaged if you crash. While I like titanium, CF has certainly stolen most of the market. I wonder how much LA and the USPS/Discovery Team victories had to do with it............but, I still think titanium will have its place with cyclists.

Regards,
Jefferito

ericcox

Calfee on the dragonfly: https://www.calfeedesign.com/dragonfly.htm

skinny

Should be everyone's biggest concern with carbon fiber.

mayukawa

There might not be enough demand for the bigger Ti builders like Litespeed, but of course there are many smaller Ti builders around for those who do want to pay the premium for a Ti bike.

tcs

Louis Ocano won the 1973 Tour of France riding a Speedwell titanium frame. Look it up and then apologize.

TCS

tcs

Yep. But of course purchasers of high end bicycles by-and-large emulate the top tier pros. That's yet one more reason why the shops are full of carbon fiber frames and they can't move titanium.

TCS

Rob P

This is no off the cuff rumor, the truth is that carbon bikes out sell Ti bikes.

Ti is more expensive to work with. It also only has shape and alu mix to provide stiffness and weight savings. Carbon has shape, weave and material mix. Carbon is the superior material when you consider it has the 3rd variable that allows for many more interesting combinations.

Another, long term issue that ti bikes face is that they all look so similar if not painted. I wont comment on any specific maker, however you'll notice some ti frame builders trying to make their tube shapes similar to that of carbon bikes.

Carbon is hot. The look and the feel got it. Ti was great before carbon was mainstream because it was light and forgiving. When compared to Alu bikes of the 90's they were a dream to ride. However when you compare ti to carbon; carbon can be cheaper, lighter and stiffer then it's ti equal.

I truly believe that ti will slowly fade out of the main stream market and become for a select few who want to ride something different. You might see small ti frame builders building custom bikes. I dont think the market can keep supporting ti frame builders in their current form.