tinrobot

Riding, designing, selling... I count three dimensions.

BillyD

Oh Yeah!! I'll have you know there are dozens . . . DOZENS I TELL YOU . . . of supremely qualified members here vying for that award.





DOZENS I tell you!!!

Ti-tillIdie

Those frames have been brought up before, and I think it was determined that the fact that they use an (unpopular) 650 wheel size is what killed their selling price.

Siu Blue Wind

So if they used 700 how much do you think it might go for? (not being a brat, just honestly wondering and learning here )

patentcad

It's nice to get a little token recognition, even indirectly.

Ti-tillIdie

That bike looks like it has some ancient triathalon specific geometry which is a byproduct of the 650 wheels so it's hard to say what it could bring with 700cc's. Plus its not a branded bike (with an unknown country of origin) which also makes it hard. But if I was forced to guess I would say 400 to 450 for a no name Ti frame on ebay is optimistic. You can pick up a 7 to 10 year old Merlin/Litespeed frame in good/great shape for $600 to $700 which I think is a decent deal. Those are probably a better buy too in my book.

DasProfezzional

To suggest that kind of award is to nominate yourself for it. Congrats.

To answer your question, no. But no in the sense that the only thing that I stand to gain from the crapping out of a thousand bicycles is that secret satisfaction that comes from knowing that all the people who've bragged about the immortality of their carbon wuenderframes to me, somebody who's worked in the service end of the industry, and who knows that carbon is anything but immortal, will maybe feel a twinge of poetic retribution. No shame in that.

And I don't need the failure of any other bike to justify the purchase of my own. On my road bike, I have a carbon fork, and there's carbon in my saddle, but that's it. I worked for two years to save up for the bike alone, and I couldn't be happier, because every part on the bicycle is there by my choosing. My goal was to build a bike that I could race but that could also outlive me; I know that it hasn't failed after regular abuse, hasn't failed after two significant crashes, and won't fail in the future. I know people who can say all three for their carbon frames, but I also know people who can't.

So who's trying to justify a purchase?

Siu Blue Wind

Thank you Ti tillIdie.

I think the frame is a Mongoose.

Jon (Pheard) just ordered one and had it shipped to his dad's house. I'm supposed to go with him tomorrow to check it out (in case of shipping damage) so perhaps if I see it I can justify why I paid so much more - even considering the geometry on mine.

Don't get me wrong, I love my bike, it fits me perfectly. I have no regrets at all. And that is the key, right?

I guess I'm feeling for some reason that he got a SUPER deal, even though it is for the smaller wheels. I heard it may be uncomfy because he's planning on using it as a road bike, not a tri bike.

mista_chewey

who said carbon was immortal? that person must be an idiot....

edit: i just noticed a typo

Tom Stormcrowe

That's because Ti is a strategic mineral and our primary source is South Africa and the Dollar dropping has raised the real cost of importation of raw materials.

Tom Stormcrowe

Because your frame was specifically designed and built for your needs? Jon is getting a great TT frame, but I suspect he's going to have early issues adapting to the very, very aggressive riding posture on his bike. Granted, it's going to be a wickedly awesome ride though.

oilman_15106

I have the solution to this inane argument. Make a bike out of CF and Ti. Have a Litespeed CF fork impregnated with Ti on my Quintana Roo. Or just buy a Titus.

wtex

OK, let's drop a few myths here, I've got a DeSalvo Ti that is as stiff, maybe stiffer than a Klein Quantum. Ti, Steel, CF is only as stiff as it's made (Ok, AL is probably very stiff out of the gate). Also, you don't have to spend $5K on a Ti bike(a smaller custome Ti builder will almost certainly be less than the highest end Trek). I had the choice of buying a high end Lemond, Trek, or whatever other CF bike. And they would've been great. I went with a Ti bike, could've been Strong or Kish or a few others at the same pricepoint, and it's also great. Thing is, I don't have to worry about clamping it wrong, or leaning against the wrong thing, or dropping an allen wrench when working on it. That's the big differentiator. A Ti bike can be made, at similar cost, to ride just like a steel or CF or Al bike. The Ti bike, unlike the others, will forgive folly that the others may not.

johnny99

Is that really true? You can buy name brand carbon bikes at most bike shops for under $2000 these days and that is a complete bike, not just a frame. I don't see any Ti bikes in that price range, let alone Ti bikes with a similar weight and ride quality.

And your comments about Ti bikes being much tougher than CF don't sound realistic, either. Modern lightweight metal frames are very thin at many points, so you often cannot clamp them in workstands or bike racks. Maybe some heavier Ti frames use heavy duty straight-guage tubing throughout, but those are not going to ride as nicely as a decent CF frame.

pseudobrit

Just buy one of everything and you'll never have to worry whether you've got the best frame material.

NotAsFat

Nominating oneself for an award is well and good, but the people who actually win awards don't have to nominate themselves. Other people recognize their qualifications.

Schadenfreude at the misfortune of people who have done you no harm is one of the hallmarks of a true dick.

Thank you, Capitan Obvious, for explaining your choice of a Ti frame. Durability is the only reason to choose Ti over CF. CF frames, at least the current generation of CF frames, are both lighter and stiffer than Ti.

If I were convinced that CF was dangerous, failure-prone crap, and that anyone using it deserved to have it fail, I think that the fork would be the last place I'd want CF on my bike.

But nothing you've said explains why the failure of strangers' bikes should make you happy.

Not me. I don't own a CF bike, and the two bikes I've been looking at lately have steel frames. I don't have the budget for either CF or Ti.

wtex

I have no fear about clamping my butted Ti Bike, the Klein, eh, a little.

Ok, yah, you can find a $2K or so Ti bike, that will almost certainly be heavier than a comparable CF bike. Can't speak to ride quality in that situation, nor to clamping it, tho I'd guess it's straight gauge, so, I think I'd feel safer clamping the Ti, at that price point.

I think considering Ghisallo like bikes in all Ti/CF discussions is not useful. The myth of the whippy Ghisallo cannot be applied to any Ti bike, it's not useful to anyone.

Again, my single data point, I had the choice of and rode various CF bikes, went with the Ti. Weighs in at 17.6 lbs. I could go into 14lbs or lower with CF or Ti, both at great cost, and with neither could I feel safe about lifetime rideability.

For all material types, ride quality and weight can be tuned, price will vary. At similar price points, and not as high as some claim, Ti wins in my book. It's more forgiving.

DasProfezzional

You're just bickering now, AsFat. That's OK on threads where nobody has anything to say anyway, but this is an actual discussion thread that has some merit. So stop.

In response, though, the lightest production frame on the planet is a titanium frame. The Litespeed Ghisallo. This is not subject to debate: 770g for a medium. At the moment, it's impossible to build a production carbon frame at that weight because of, you guessed it, carbon's lack of resiliency relative to titanium.

As for my fork, it is a Reynolds Ouzo Pro, which is a very nice product from a very reputable company that I endorse very highly, but I'll replace it after five years.

ManBearPig

I miss the days when Ti was a rare commodity in the consumer marketplace. I was so fascinated with the metal that I literally begged for occasional scraps from a project I worked on as an engineering student. (Imagine my delight to have an entire bike made out of it). Of course, the end of the cold war spurred migration from government/defense to private sector commercialization of titanium products, which is why Ti golf clubs, watches, and bicycles are now relatively abundant. Ti is still highly desirable, but it has lost some of its exotic luster due to its proliferation.

WheresWaldo

From what I recall, all the Mongoose Ti frames were made in the US, by a company called Titanium Sports Technologies (TST). they are located in Kennewick, WA. I had one of their road frames, it was very nice. I had to have some work done on it and took it to a local machine shop that specialized in Ti parts for the NASCAR industry. The owner told me it was one of the best welded Ti he had ever seen.

As the story was told to me, TST was a division of Sandvik (the largest Ti supplier in the world). Started by engineer types. The built all their own jigs, overbuilt them as I heard it. They did this to open a new market for their Ti tubing. Got a huge contract from Mongoose to supply all their Ti frames and then Mongoose promptly went bankrupt. TST was stuck with hundreds (maybe thousands of frames, I don't really know the number). They started selling them off cheap. I got mine for $350. These frames were as good as any frame that came from Merlin, Litespeed or any other Ti builder, just not as fancy. Sold mine to a buddy who loves the ride. TST is still builting bike frames, but their specialty is sport wheelchairs. Here are some images:

Before building and bead-blasting

Each image is a clickable thumbnail to a higher resolution picture

Built:

Each image is a clickable thumbnail to a higher resolution picture

Now back to our regularly scheduled nonsense.

MillCreek

And in response to WW above, TST, and the myriad other titanium fabrication companies in the Tri-Cities area of Washington all got their start from the Hanford Nuclear Reservation there. Due to its mechanical and chemical properties, titanium piping and tubing is an excellent choice for the mission-critical plumbing of a nuclear reactor. Much of the American experience in titanium fabrication came from the nuclear, maritime, space and aerospace industries. I am told that SE Washington has some of the best titanium workers in the world. I have seen TST frames in person, and the welding and frame finish were a sight to behold.

NotAsFat

Your refusal to concede the tacky pettiness of your attitude toward CF bike owners has made my point for me, so I won't bother with belaboring the point.

On more substantive matters, the Ghisallo is a very light frame, but by the time you add a fork, headset, and seatpost, you're up to around 1,400 grams, which is what a 2008 Madone with those parts weighs. The Madone is one of the laterally stiffest bikes around. The Ghisallo ... is not.

Carbon fiber frame weights and prices keep dropping. That's because we're still on the steep part of the learning curve in carbon fiber frame design and manufacturing. Titanium fabrication is a much more "mature" technology. Ti frames are about as good as they're ever going to get. CF will continue to get lighter, cheaper, and more durable. The future belongs to CF. Ti is, and will remain, a niche material.

Aikidoka

Some very interesting comments here on this topic....

Whether bikes, or vacume cleaners or pizza...its ALL economy of scale. If titanium was the material of choice, I can guarantee you that Ti bike (and materials) prices would drop. CF is the clear leader now so the mad dash has been on to make it as affordable as possible. Trust me, if the large Pacific Rim operations wanted to, they'd come up with efficent robotic assembly lines for Ti, its just that Ti never became that popular, at least at a large scale like CF has. I'm being a bit vague about this and CF definitely has production/cost advantages over Ti but the market wants CF, THATS where the market demand is.

As for BD and Mike's post (and response)...here we go again eh? Sheesh, give the guy some breathing room. Again, I will go back to why I want to hear about BD and similar who are driving the market TO OUR BENEFIT. Some of you who actually understand business will see merit in this, those of you who are too busy validating your own emotional purchases and having to defend it...might want to stay out of it and learn something.

Back when I was heavily into bikes a top end custom frame/fork was $895 (JP Weigle with most expensive paint and Campt SR headset. A full blown Campy SR bike like a Somec, Masi, etc FULLY equipped was about $1500 (leass actually) if I remember correctly. I bought a Masi 3V frame/fork for $850 new andit wasnt that long ago.. When I was a kid the most expensive race bike was a LeJeune full campy for $600. A real top end bike now is above $5000. I see $6000-$8000 is not uncommon. Almost ANY top end fram/fork is $3000+ and thats the low end of high-end. Prices have gone berzerk...out of control.

I dont want to spend $3000-$4000-$5000+ to get a top end bike...maybe you do, but I dont. Some of you can afford to spend that...I would assert MOST of you can't but you blow the rent money to do it. I wont. I also see rediculously priced equipment...like seats...$259 for a seat? come on...its all hype and many of you buy into that. I dont. Some of you think in order to be "accepted" you have to buy an "accepted" brand name..too bad, I dont need that to validate me as a man and a rider.

Yesterday I visited a LBS and saw a few CF/Ti "Seven" frames...I almost gagged when I saw the prices...holy S--t. Real nice frames yes...for that $ I'd buy 2 real nice bikes and take a cruise to the islands with my lady thank you. Maybe its worth that $$ for YOU, not me. My point here....stop telling me (and others) in order to fit into your itty bitty world of "acceptance" I have to buy what YOU think is worthy...go get a life, stay out of mine...your nuts.

Another point I've made before. MY local LBS gave a me Specialized catalog....holy S--T that catalog cost at least $12-15 to produce, it was a book. I asked the dealer what he paid for these...he said, they're free...I said to myself "no they're not"...WE, the customer pay for them. Manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank, dealers make 35% MAX on a bike sale and the general public pays stupid-high prices for bicycles these days. Who is the culprit here?

Those of you who cherish your $259 bike seat on your $5000+ bike, hey thats cool, enjoy it with my blessings! But dont come here and spout that BS on the rest of me.

As for Mike/BD and others similar who come here with alternatives. I can say for fact that if a Cannondale, Trek, Specialized, etc... representative came here to say hello, ask questions and fit in..many of you would bow down and suck up. You'd be SOOOO nice.


I feel better, now I will dig my fox hole...

cheers

dcbikeguy

NotAsFat

+1000 on that. A product manager from Redline started a thread in SS&FG requesting ideas for the 2008 925 model, and got nearly 200 responses and over 7,000 views.