Shimano's Domination
11-11-07, 07:02 AM
#51
Chases Dogs for Sport
11-11-07, 07:11 AM
#52
Senior Member
Thread Starter
But Shimano doesn't make clothing? What kind of markey domination is that? Wusses...
The situation is different in Europe, but not hugely. What gets me is that Campagnolo groupset, when bought from an online retailer like probikekit, for example, are typically cheaper than Shimano groups. So Shimans OEM discounts must be spectacular.
I asked an LBS about a Campagnolo cross bike and they wondering why I might do that. In my case, it's because I hate STI.
The situation is different in Europe, but not hugely. What gets me is that Campagnolo groupset, when bought from an online retailer like probikekit, for example, are typically cheaper than Shimano groups. So Shimans OEM discounts must be spectacular.
I asked an LBS about a Campagnolo cross bike and they wondering why I might do that. In my case, it's because I hate STI.
Have all their top end pedal systems, i.e. SPD Dura-Ace 7810, Ultega 6620, PD600 and PD 540's. The 540's are crappy entry level with plastic body but the DA and Ult. pedals are excellent quality.
11-11-07, 07:40 AM
#53
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Ah, but Shimano does not make shorts and retro jerseys.
@botto.
Most of shops I've been to Britain and Austria were full of half Shimano equipped bikes. Only one of the bike shops in my home town has Campagnolo bikes regularly, although one more keeps spares (but they also keep spares for Sachs groupsets). And this despite the common currency. I do think this is largely because the number of bikes assembled in Europe is decreasing. As soon as Claud Butler moved it abroad, all the Miche and Ofmega components were replaced with Truvativ and Tektro.
@botto.
Most of shops I've been to Britain and Austria were full of half Shimano equipped bikes. Only one of the bike shops in my home town has Campagnolo bikes regularly, although one more keeps spares (but they also keep spares for Sachs groupsets). And this despite the common currency. I do think this is largely because the number of bikes assembled in Europe is decreasing. As soon as Claud Butler moved it abroad, all the Miche and Ofmega components were replaced with Truvativ and Tektro.
11-11-07, 08:04 AM
#54
Young and unconcerned
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Plenty of Campy in my UK LBS - they stock a great many Cannondales and Bianchis - plenty of the cheaper ones have Mirage and Xenon.
But yeah - strong Euro and weak dollar doesn't make for much importing. And there's probably a lot of force of habit involved in the States, I would imagine.
But yeah - strong Euro and weak dollar doesn't make for much importing. And there's probably a lot of force of habit involved in the States, I would imagine.
11-11-07, 08:10 AM
#55
SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07
Taking a longer view what you see is a market reversal for Campy. Back in the Pleistocene (aka 1970s) when I started Campy was the Word. You could ride quality Asian components back then but the "real deal" was from Italy. Shimano had to wait for SunTour's patent on the slant parallelogram derailleur (the modern design) to expire. After that with the intro of Dur-Ace and 600 (now Ultegra) and the ability to out-produce their competition SunTour's days were numbered. The same production capacity allowed them to push Campy to the background as well.
You also have to give Shimano credit for innovation. Their "break" might have been SunTour's patent expiration but they made indexing work and they developed the "brifter." Armstrong gave them success in Europe and the rest is history.
Will it stay this way? Who knows? The yen/dollar/euro situation favors Shimano and they're much larger than their competitors. However, economic situations always change.
FWIW I prefer Ergo to STI even though back in the day I always rode SunTour or Shimano b/c I couldn't afford Campy....
You also have to give Shimano credit for innovation. Their "break" might have been SunTour's patent expiration but they made indexing work and they developed the "brifter." Armstrong gave them success in Europe and the rest is history.
Will it stay this way? Who knows? The yen/dollar/euro situation favors Shimano and they're much larger than their competitors. However, economic situations always change.
FWIW I prefer Ergo to STI even though back in the day I always rode SunTour or Shimano b/c I couldn't afford Campy....
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11-11-07, 08:49 AM
#56
bike fandango
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..when I started Campy was the Word. You could ride quality Asian components back then but the "real deal" was from Italy. Shimano had to wait for SunTour's patent on the slant parallelogram derailleur (the modern design) to expire. After that with the intro of Dur-Ace and 600 (now Ultegra) and the ability to out-produce their competition SunTour's days were numbered. The same production capacity allowed them to push Campy to the background as well..
SunTour had some wonderful components, but the writing was on the wall when Shimano ramped-up.
****
Guinness/similar quality brews - yes!
Corona/Budweiser/similar watery piss - no! Alcohol delivery system for cheap skates who don't care about quality beer.
Last edited by Brian_1; 11-11-07 at 08:58 AM.
11-11-07, 11:20 AM
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Mac (sorta =) Elite carbon racer with very few options but all high end.
Linux = Custom, LBS built elite carbon racer (but with the durability of steel) and an endless array options, all better than Windows. It's usually FREE, but since it's unmarketed, only those who take the time to educate themselves know what everyone else is missing.
11-11-07, 11:42 AM
#60
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Let's take the LBS model one step further, detached. Let's go to a non profit bike shop and examine what they carry and why. That way we might reduce the "profit motive" from the argument and see what comes out of it.
11-11-07, 11:51 AM
#61
Senior Member
It actually is possible to find 10-speed wide-range cassettes made by IRD. The trouble is finding a shop that can order them for you, and the nasty $125 price tag.
11-11-07, 12:24 PM
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It is already getting hard to find some 9-speed era Shimano parts. Ocatlink bottom brackets come to mind quickly. It is a shame, as I think 9-speeds is the sweet spot (just my prefernce). Campagnolo hasn't been the best at supporting their older lines either, though.
11-11-07, 07:09 PM
#63
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The main thing, in my opinion, that prevents wider adoption of Campy by many, especially OE for bikes is their steadfast refusal to align their cassette spacing and freehub spline pattern, as well as their goofy 135mm BCD chainrings with the rest of the industry. For bike companies it opens up a big can of worms when dealing with warranties. As for end users, a Campy wheelset is generally harder to sell because it only works with Campy, unless you're willing to adapt it.
Also, as an aside, Campy is virtually invisible when it comes to the cycling community in this country. You rarely see them at any cycling events, they never bother with a presence at the Bike Summit. Shimano, as a company, seems to be willing to spend a lot more time and money helping to put more people on bikes and to use its weight to push for legislation that will give bike commuters the same tax breaks as people who use public transportation.
Lastly, since Campy apparently doesn't think the MTB crowd matters, why should an OE forgo a better discount for using more Shimano or Sram parts on their bikes and instead take a chance with a brand virtually unknown to MTBers crossing over to road?
Also, as an aside, Campy is virtually invisible when it comes to the cycling community in this country. You rarely see them at any cycling events, they never bother with a presence at the Bike Summit. Shimano, as a company, seems to be willing to spend a lot more time and money helping to put more people on bikes and to use its weight to push for legislation that will give bike commuters the same tax breaks as people who use public transportation.
Lastly, since Campy apparently doesn't think the MTB crowd matters, why should an OE forgo a better discount for using more Shimano or Sram parts on their bikes and instead take a chance with a brand virtually unknown to MTBers crossing over to road?
Why should Campagnolo change the BCD on their cranks? Do you really think that PM say, "Ah geeze, I'd like to spec Campy on this bike but, uh, your BCD won't allow consumers so use cheap, aftermarket chainrings that will shift like crap so...we'll be using Shimano for this bike."
How does BCD have ANYTHING to do with warranties? If you have a Campagnolo warranty you don't replace it with an FSA part.
The point you make about presence at events in the US is a valid one. This still has absolutely no influence on PM when they make decisions regarding spec. The PM again, "Ah geeze, I'd like to spec Campy on this bike but, uh, we never see you at the races, so we'll use Shimano on this bike."
None of your points are even remotely related to why Shimano dominated the OE market.
I'll give you a few hints.
Price. Price. Price. Shimano offers HUGE OE discounts. Campagnolo does not.
Production capacity. Shimano can handle HUGE OE orders. Campagnolo can not. (Although expect some serious delays with 08 bikes as even the mighty Shimano is having big delays. This is causing some big headaches in the industry right now)
Asian factory support. Shimano offers excellent support to the frame, component and assembly factories. If you have any questions or problems they are on it. The factories know this so they push Shimano on the PM. They also package their OE parts so they are easiest for the assembly factories to use.
Campagnolo offers escellent support but doesn't have the same kind of printed technical material available for the engineers (this come back to the lawyers and is a long story). Another problem is that assembly factories assume Campagnolo goes together like Shimano and they sometimes have problems. Instead of learning from their mistakes, they just try to avoid anything that isn't Shimano (including SRAM to a degree.)
Shimanos' entry and domination of the MTB market. This has already been dealt with by other posters.
So, to recap, price, lawyers, factory support, price, and a product that is already recognized by consumers (a no brainer sale).
11-11-07, 07:20 PM
#65
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Campagnolo seems reluctant to sub out production to the orient. That and the incredible shrinking dollar are really killing them in the market. I use Campy on all my road bikes. It wouldn't bother me if they made their parts in Taiwan. Quality would probably be better and price surely lower.
Tim
Tim
11-11-07, 08:43 PM
#66
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Didn't see any retro jerseys, but they do make shorts and just about everything else.
https://www.shimano-cyclingwear.com/p.../nl/index.html
Going by their dealer locator, it seems like they don't sell any of it in the US though.
https://www.shimano-cyclingwear.com/p.../nl/index.html
Going by their dealer locator, it seems like they don't sell any of it in the US though.
11-11-07, 08:49 PM
#67
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11-11-07, 09:42 PM
#68
Have bike. Will travel.
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It works well, and it's reasonably priced in comparison to Campy. I'm having deja-vu about this thread.
11-11-07, 09:57 PM
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11-12-07, 08:54 AM
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11-12-07, 09:21 AM
#74
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Just to clear up a point I've seen made here a few times - your LBS doesn't choose what parts go on the bikes they sell (unless they build them themselves). Product Managers who work for the bike companies (Trek, Fuji, Giant etc) decide what parts get hung on their respective frames.
Your LBS has very little say in this. This is especially true in the newer concept stores, like Specialized, that sell predominantly products from one brand (this is actually an old idea that has come around again).
Believe me when I tell you this. Product Managers fear two things: Late delivery and late delivery. It can kill a brand.
PM are given a budget and then told to go out and spec the entire range. They are concerned about quality (and brand recognition etc) but they are really focussed on price. I have been in a room where a PM has haggled over 2 cent cheaper rim strips. These things add up.
Once the bikes have been spec'd there is a fairly tight production schedule. As an example, the '08 bikes are pretty much done and we are on to '09 and 2010 product already.
If the delivery of your shifters, or tires or any single part of the assembly process is significantly delayed it can put the entire season at risk for a brand. Shimano is late, across the board, with deliveries (MONTHS LATE). This has people pulling their hair out and revising their '08 forecasts downwards.
So, Shimano truly owes it's continued position in the market because they give good OE pricing (and recoup the profit with aftermarket sales) and efficient production (current problems aside).
Thinking that any other factors have a significant impact on what gets spec'd on a bike is simply not the case.
Your LBS has very little say in this. This is especially true in the newer concept stores, like Specialized, that sell predominantly products from one brand (this is actually an old idea that has come around again).
Believe me when I tell you this. Product Managers fear two things: Late delivery and late delivery. It can kill a brand.
PM are given a budget and then told to go out and spec the entire range. They are concerned about quality (and brand recognition etc) but they are really focussed on price. I have been in a room where a PM has haggled over 2 cent cheaper rim strips. These things add up.
Once the bikes have been spec'd there is a fairly tight production schedule. As an example, the '08 bikes are pretty much done and we are on to '09 and 2010 product already.
If the delivery of your shifters, or tires or any single part of the assembly process is significantly delayed it can put the entire season at risk for a brand. Shimano is late, across the board, with deliveries (MONTHS LATE). This has people pulling their hair out and revising their '08 forecasts downwards.
So, Shimano truly owes it's continued position in the market because they give good OE pricing (and recoup the profit with aftermarket sales) and efficient production (current problems aside).
Thinking that any other factors have a significant impact on what gets spec'd on a bike is simply not the case.
11-12-07, 10:43 AM
#75
Ho-Jahm
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My understanding is campy was slow to move towards indexed shifting and it didn't turn out so well when they did. Then, they were even slower in combining the shifters and brakes, but by that time everyone had switched to STI because it had been out for much longer an was vastly superior to downtube shifting (try winning a sprint with DT shifters). Then Lance came around, shimano could out build Campy and the rest is history.
