Amen

I think by destroyed he means subpoenaed, forced to make a statement under oath, then pleading the fifth, thus destroying his reputation.

urbanknight

Unlikely isn't good enough to me when I know the consequences of the less-likely-but-still-possible outcome. I know plenty of people who have had dogs run right into their wheel. The dogs just think they're playing, but anybody who's been to a dog park knows that ramming the animal your chasing is part of the game, and even uninvolved humans and dogs get taken out in the excitement.

My plan is to slow to a stop as quickly as is safe. If the dog is playing, it will stop because it's no fun chasing an immoble object. If it's out to maul me, I'd rather defend myself standing with my bike as a shield than being taken out at 30+ mph trying to outrun it.

Edonis13

taking away from the origional argument and comedy of your statement. do you really think that envoking a constitutional right ruins your reputation?

blonduathlongrl

There is probably a million other thoughts going through your mind right now and feeling guilty or responsable will be one of them but I think right now is the time to worry about your friend and his health all the other worries will fall into place eventually.

I will keep your friend and yourself in my thoughts. hoping for a speedy recovery to him.

dcvelo

If I'm reading this right the dog never even made contact with anyone....

I don't mean to be unfair to the o.p., I know how hard it is not to react in these situations...but if you knew the house you were passing had loose dogs from time to time, it would have made a lot of sense to ease off the pace a little and open up a little distance between riders before passing it so you'd have the option to brake, swerve, or whatever. I do a lot of riding with a group near my weekend place, and that's our standard practice when we approach a house we know to have a chasing dog (of which there are a lot in that area).

badfishgood

I didn't even finish reading the first page and I'm a amazed by how many people's first thought is "who is liable".

God bless America.

owenh

Im not sure on US law "However"
If you were both cars not bikes your mate would be at fault for
not following at a safe distance
As a cyclist on the road we still have to obey all the laws
Just some food for thought before you spend money on a layer

Hope your mate gets better

NotAsFat

Actually, the disarming of innocent people by foolish governments is the sickest element.

Skewer

I am not sure that this case is a slam dunk for the injured rider against the dog owners. In my opinion, this case has major differences from the Judge Judy case. Although I ride in packs all the time, if I were an attorney, I would make the argument that the injured party was following you too closely at an unsafe distance. And I would bring along to the court copies of all those "event guidelines" that we periodically see where drafting is not allowed because it is an inherently unsafe activity. I would also argue that there was even more reason than normal for the injured party to be following you at a safe distance when you passed that house considering that you both knew "there was an occasional loose dog" there. I would also argue lack of "proximate cause", in so much this accident was directly related to your friend following you too closely and you hitting your brakes rather than directly related to the dog running in front of the injured party. And finally, I would make the car analogy to bolster my case. If you were in a car that was being followed too closely by another car, and you hit your brakes to avoid a dog and the car behind you slammed in to you and the second car's occupants hurt themselves, I don't believe the occupants in the second car would be able to collect anything from the other parties---neither the loose dog owner nor you, but I could be wrong.

Nonetheless, I hope your friend recovers from this unfortunate accident soon and commend you for asking whether there is anything you could have done differently. If your friend does pursue legal action againt the dog owners, please let us know what comes of this case.

kenshinvt

While I should probably hold back from feeding some anti-US trolling, I'll take the bait.

America gets a lot of flak for being litigation-happy. Some of that is deserved, for example, a lot of the product liability and emotional distress lawsuits that get pushed into the media spotlight. Also, litigation may be entirely avoidable in this situation--it depends on how willing the dog owner is to take responsibility for what happened. Either way, it shouldn't be the very first step in resolving what happened.

That said, there is a reason we have tort law and the doctrine of negligence. We want people to be responsible for their actions and watch out for their neighbors. If they fail in this regard, they should be liable for the damages that they cause and not their hapless victim. This is a perfect example of what happens when people fail to take reasonable precautions to restrain (or simply train) their pets.

Personally, I'm glad some people have brought up litigation. The OP needs to be aware that if his friend is unable to work something out with the dog owner and has out-of-pocket expenses related to the accident, they should give legal action some consideration.

Lastly, for all your anti-american sentiment, you fail to realize that the legal basis they would sue under (negligence) was originated and developed in Europe.

noisebeam

I agree, I posted it just as it was related and a fun view for those who have not already seen it.
Al

ElJamoquio

And who's to say he'd be better off if you'd gone into the dog?

Skewer

At one time, a generally accepted safe rule concerning automobiles was to allow at least one automobile length in space behind the next automobile for every 10miles of speed you are traveling, so if us cyclists are truly governed by rules of the road for autos, your friend probably needs to be 25 to 30 feet behind you when you are traveling 20mph.

Edit: Maybe in the case of bicycles it should be one bicycle length for every 10 miles of speed?

mconlonx

The point being made by others is that while it might be nice if US law actually did this, it actually encourages people to be less responsible for their own actions by finding legal avenues to blame others for their own mistakes. I.e. it has discouraged rather than fostered personal responsibility. OP is lucky dog owner is not suing for emotional distress suffered by the family of the dog that was nearly wiped out by two vicious, out of control cyclists.

I don't mean to make light of the situation. Hope your friend heals well and quick. Doesn't help you much, but I think he's more to blame than you are. Could have been any unknown out there, not just a dog, that might make you move like you did and the same thing could have gone down.

kenshinvt

I think your arguments are reasonable, and would be appropriate given the facts. However, proximate causation (legal causation) would not be difficult to prove. First, if owner broke any leash laws that can be prima facie evidence that the owner was negligent. Second, proximate cause hinges on foreseeability (most often) or direct causation (a "but for" your action test). It is very foreseeable that an unleashed dog running free on an owner's property would cause an accident in the street (either bike or vehicular). It was also a direct cause: "but for" the owner's dog running loose, the accident wouldn't have happened.

With what you said about safe following distances.. I think what you were getting at is "contributory negligence" as a defense. That's reasonable to argue, but I'm sure there is an equal amount of evidence to the contrary that riding within a few wheel lengths is generally accepted as a safe practice.

Also, I think the analogy to cars you are making is based on strict liability laws that are particular to automobiles.

Note - This is not to be taken as legal advice to the OP.

kenshinvt

Have more faith in the legal system. It has its flaws, but was created out of necessity. The dog owner would possibly be able to make a counterclaim along those lines, but judges are reasonable people just like you and me and would likely grant a motion to dismiss such outlandish claims. Would you rather they go after the dog owner with a baseball bat?

Skewer

Well I edited the one car length for every 10 mph to one bike length for every 10 mph before I read your response. You have a "few wheel lengths" as your safe distance. I wonder if there is any actual case law establishing what is a safe distance for bicyclists to be following another bicyclist? Good points further defining proximate cause and contributory negligence. I am not a lawyer and had forgot about some of those concepts.

MacBeth

I hope for a speedy and full recovery for your friend.

Owners are responsible for their pets, regardless of leash laws.

I recently had a dog run into my bike at about 12 mph. I ran over him. I braced for a crash, but apparently he was small enough that I just ran over him. He got up and scurried out of the road unhurt. Scared the crap out of me, but the little bugger still chases me.

I have also recently had run-ins with redneck neighbors who have a couple of mean, junkyard dogs on the loose. They didn't get it when I spoke to them about their dog's safety. Just went into an irrational rage. I was calm: they went ballistic. Very threatening behavior from them, but their dogs still run into the street. So, it is route change or take a chance: just seems to be a downside aspect of cycling.

urbanknight

Considering bikes take about the same distance to stop for a given speed, you could argue the car length if you wished. The only thing we have over cars is we only have to swerve 2' to the side to avoid a collision.

Amen

I guess it depends if you already swore one way, then plead the fifth......Like that whole fiasco with the prosecutors getting fired and nobody willing to be say anything under oath because they knew they would lie.....

But exercising your rights is a-ok, so long as your aren't lying otherwise.

But, in the case of the dog. Yes, the dogs rep would be ruined.

Duke of Kent

Either speed up to 30, or slow down to 10 and yell.

The last time I had an encounter with a dog, it bit my leg because I just maintained my pace, made no move to indicate aggression on my part, or tried to get away.

The next time, on the way back home that same day, I kicked it so hard in the face it tripped, went over the end of the road and into the water filled ditch. A couple of days later, it came after me again from the owners porch, but stopped at the ditch.

Dogs have to learn their place. Chasing and biting humans is not it.

Donegal

Understand that's why they are called accidents. The dog was just being a dog, dumb but a dog. I am a dog lover, but on a bike they can be way dangerous. You were just reacting in a logical, self-preserving manner. I see nothing wrong except your friend was in the wrong place at the wrong time and was involved in an accident. Our prayers and best wishes to them.

I was recently riding with a friend, we approached a light and sped up to make the green. A black mercedes with a middle aged woman was approaching us. She stopped in the intersection to await our passing and I felt quite safe. The light changed to yellow and I saw her acclerate and begin her turn, right into our path. I locked my rear wheel and braked hard with the front one. My riding partner was behind me, crossing over my rear wheel when I braked. He went down hard, separated a shoulder and was in extreme pain. I took him to the emergency room and he will have a raised shoulder bone for life, as well as many months of therapy to regain the full use of the shoulder.

I understand why you feel bad, I felt terrible. Both my friend and my wife explained to me that I had no choice but to lock it down when the car began it's turn. My friend got caught out of position and went down. It was an accident, not anything that we wanted to happen. Sometimes bad things happen, we try to get through them. My friend is starting to ride again. He has decided we will train together for a hilly century in North Georgia next year. It's going to be an interesting winter.

Az B

This is why I rarely draft on open, public roads.

I hope your friend heals completely and quickly.

Az

Walter

I hope your friend recovers from what appears to be a pretty bad crash.

Hard not to, but you ought not beat yourself up. You reacted and if you both knew there was the probability of a dog he should've backed off your wheel. I'm not dumping on him as it sounds like he got beat up pretty good in the crash but you shouldn't take all the blame on yourself.

As for all the litigation stuff I don't see how the non-crashing hence uninjured OP has much foundation to sue anyone. Not that some Yellow Pages shark might not try but litigation (if there's any) probably has to start with the injured rider.

Sirrobinofcoxly

If your friend was leading, he would have done the same. You can't control reflexes in a situation like that. Let's hope he heals up quick.