Why Use CO2 Instead of Air?
#51
Certifiable Bike "Expert"
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,647
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Actually I have never experienced it, only heard about it. I think it's a problem when people hold the inflator improperly - and/or - throttle the flow too much (little bursts instead of one quick shot).
What you're saying could happen of course, and if so, I would expect it to be a bigger problem in areas/seasons of higher humidity. But the drop in temperature would be the same no matter how you hold the inflator... so if holding the inflator vertically (valve up, liquid down) prevents the freezing, then it would seem it's really the CO2 that's icing up if you hold it sideways. Also, once you make the connection, there's no air (and no water vapor to freeze) in the pathway between cartidge and tube.
Easy to run some experiments on if I didn't mind wasting a few carts.
What you're saying could happen of course, and if so, I would expect it to be a bigger problem in areas/seasons of higher humidity. But the drop in temperature would be the same no matter how you hold the inflator... so if holding the inflator vertically (valve up, liquid down) prevents the freezing, then it would seem it's really the CO2 that's icing up if you hold it sideways. Also, once you make the connection, there's no air (and no water vapor to freeze) in the pathway between cartidge and tube.
Easy to run some experiments on if I didn't mind wasting a few carts.
#52
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,114
Bikes: 2006 Raleigh Cadent 2.0, 2016 Trek Emonda ALR 6, 2015 Propel Advanced SL 2, 2000 K2 Zed SE
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
CO2 fire extinguishers make a nice CO2 snow that sublimes right away.
The opposite is also true, which is why things like SCUBA tanks get very hot when filled. Really, really, really hot.
#53
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
Is it CO2 snow or is it frost from the surrounding air?
#54
Roadkill
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 858
Bikes: 2002 Lightspeed Classic; 2010 Pedalforce RS
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
CO2 can be compressed to the point that it forms a liquid at normal temperatures. At 68°F the pressure in those little CO2 cylinders is 830 psia and the CO2 is a liquid.
Uh, never mind mollusk was right.
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,007
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
At atmospheric pressure CO2 can only exist in two phases: gas and solid; the later is 'dry ice', which goes directly to gas (sublimes) when it warms. If expansion cools the gas enough some solid CO2 might form but I suspect it wouldn't hang around long.
#57
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Im just going to have a stab at this:
Maybe CO2 is easier to compress than normal air. Seeing as normal air is a whole mixture of gases, it might not compress as well as CO2 which is just a single type of molecule.
Maybe CO2 is easier to compress than normal air. Seeing as normal air is a whole mixture of gases, it might not compress as well as CO2 which is just a single type of molecule.
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Moraga, CA
Posts: 1,701
Bikes: 2008 Cervelo RS, 2011 Scott CR1 Elite, 2014 Volagi Liscio
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
There is a lot of false information being thrown around here. CO2 is not a 'smaller' molecule than N2, it simply diffuses through butyl rubber at a faster rate due to various subtle interactions.
The reason why CO2 is used in a cartridge is simple: when compressed to a certain pressure at room temperature it condenses into a liquid - this is what is present inside your little cylinder. Air (or nitrogen) would still be a gas at the same pressure/temperature; since a liquid is more dense than a gas, you can get 12 or 16 grams of CO2 in a small package. You could not do this were the substance to remain gaseous. When expanded to a lower pressure the liquid changes into a gas to inflate the tire (and this absorbs heat, which is why the inflator gets cold).
If you have taken chemistry or physics you may have been exposed to 'phase diagrams' for various substances: these show the state of the substance as a function of various variables (e.g. pressure, temperatue, etc.). CO2 is also common, non-toxic and will not harm rubber.
The reason why CO2 is used in a cartridge is simple: when compressed to a certain pressure at room temperature it condenses into a liquid - this is what is present inside your little cylinder. Air (or nitrogen) would still be a gas at the same pressure/temperature; since a liquid is more dense than a gas, you can get 12 or 16 grams of CO2 in a small package. You could not do this were the substance to remain gaseous. When expanded to a lower pressure the liquid changes into a gas to inflate the tire (and this absorbs heat, which is why the inflator gets cold).
If you have taken chemistry or physics you may have been exposed to 'phase diagrams' for various substances: these show the state of the substance as a function of various variables (e.g. pressure, temperatue, etc.). CO2 is also common, non-toxic and will not harm rubber.
Cliff
#59
Certifiable Bike "Expert"
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,647
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#61
Better rider 20 yrs ago
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cheshire, Connecticut, USA
Posts: 378
Bikes: Trek 1500D
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#62
PBR Racing
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Wifes $hit List
Posts: 1,026
Bikes: Santa Cruz and Cannondale
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Carrying a big honkin pump on a bike is gay, CO2 in a pocket is kewl..........
#63
Mad scientist w/a wrench
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chucktown
Posts: 760
Bikes: none working atm
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I asked this same question to some guy at Geniune Innovations and he told me that Co2 can be compressed more. If they used air, the cartridges would be bigger. He also told me that a person would exhale more Co2 pumping up a tire by hand than a Co2 cartridge holds. Not sure if this is true and I have no way of testing it.
I can pump a tire to 120psi in ~20 strokes on my floor pump. if I breathe on each stroke there still wouldn't be that much air exchange. Remember, air is ~18% oxygen, but humans only interchange like 1-2% in each change IIRC.
Edit: if you really want your tires to hold pressure and last longer, go nitrogen.
#65
slow up hills
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,931
Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I Highly doubt this bit about more CO2 being exhaled than put into the tire, in fact I'm willing to say, without doing the math this is just plain BS.
I can pump a tire to 120psi in ~20 strokes on my floor pump. if I breathe on each stroke there still wouldn't be that much air exchange. Remember, air is ~18% oxygen, but humans only interchange like 1-2% in each change IIRC.
Edit: if you really want your tires to hold pressure and last longer, go nitrogen.
I can pump a tire to 120psi in ~20 strokes on my floor pump. if I breathe on each stroke there still wouldn't be that much air exchange. Remember, air is ~18% oxygen, but humans only interchange like 1-2% in each change IIRC.
Edit: if you really want your tires to hold pressure and last longer, go nitrogen.
#66
Sneaky Fast....
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Swartz Creek, Mi
Posts: 394
Bikes: 2007 Specialized Epic Expert, 2005 Giant TCR C3, 1996 Specialized Stumpjumper M2Comp, 1986 Raleigh Capri 10spd, 1982 KHS Turbo 12spd, Wife's: 2010 Specialized Safire Comp Komen, 2007 Specialized Dolce Elite, 2005 Giant OCR3, 2000 Trek 6000 WSD
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
CO2 is in a liquid state when "stored" in the cylinders. This is the same with paintball tanks, they have liquid CO2, which is ABOUT 1800 psi in the tanks when full. It was stated that in the winter temps the preasure goes UP in the tank, this is not true. It is actually lower. Leaving the windows of a car up, place a CO2 tank inside the car in the middle of the winter. Now do the same in the middle of the summer and it is almost a sure bet the burst disc ( safety disc for to high of preasure ) will blow releasing the tank preasure BEFORE the tank explodes.
When CO2 is released from the "tank", the preasure at which it is stored changes, causing it to become a gas state. While doing this, it release energy in the form of heat, becomin very cold. ( I can't remember the terms for this, but it is exo(something) and endo(something) (if I remember that part right anyway! It is a few years since I had a chemistry class. Maybe one of the "students" can help me!!!!)
As stated, for the same size "tanks", you will have a higher psi in a tube from liquid CO2 "tank" than compressed air (or nitrogen) as even under preasure, compressed air is still AIR.
I was actually checking pumps out today, and I still don't see the benifit of CO2. It may be smaller, and lighter, but you have to replace them every so often. I look at it the same way as my yard waste. I bought some 40g garbage cans ONCE. More money up front, but I still have them after 4 years . Now, where did those $2.00 "yard waste bags" go I put at the curb! (Please understand this comparison in the fact I have a HUGE Maple tree in my front yard. 3 pkg's of bags wouldn't even be enough every fall! )
Chris
When CO2 is released from the "tank", the preasure at which it is stored changes, causing it to become a gas state. While doing this, it release energy in the form of heat, becomin very cold. ( I can't remember the terms for this, but it is exo(something) and endo(something) (if I remember that part right anyway! It is a few years since I had a chemistry class. Maybe one of the "students" can help me!!!!)
As stated, for the same size "tanks", you will have a higher psi in a tube from liquid CO2 "tank" than compressed air (or nitrogen) as even under preasure, compressed air is still AIR.
I was actually checking pumps out today, and I still don't see the benifit of CO2. It may be smaller, and lighter, but you have to replace them every so often. I look at it the same way as my yard waste. I bought some 40g garbage cans ONCE. More money up front, but I still have them after 4 years . Now, where did those $2.00 "yard waste bags" go I put at the curb! (Please understand this comparison in the fact I have a HUGE Maple tree in my front yard. 3 pkg's of bags wouldn't even be enough every fall! )
Chris
#67
slow up hills
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,931
Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
exothermic and endothermic.
has everyone decided on the answer yet, or do we need more responses?
has everyone decided on the answer yet, or do we need more responses?
#68
Sneaky Fast....
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Swartz Creek, Mi
Posts: 394
Bikes: 2007 Specialized Epic Expert, 2005 Giant TCR C3, 1996 Specialized Stumpjumper M2Comp, 1986 Raleigh Capri 10spd, 1982 KHS Turbo 12spd, Wife's: 2010 Specialized Safire Comp Komen, 2007 Specialized Dolce Elite, 2005 Giant OCR3, 2000 Trek 6000 WSD
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: CA
Posts: 649
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The reason CO2, because it's easier to fill and the CO2 cartridges don't require the same pressure to fill. Keep in mind the CO2 is liquid under pressure, as soon as it is released into your tire, there is more volume than inside the cartridge, and it is also warmer, it changes from a liquid to a gas.
Air takes more space than liquid, so CO2 requires less space when it's a liquid in comparison to compressed air(N2/O2), although N2 and O2 can be liquid, but it requires immense pressure and cold temperatures.
With compressed air (N2/O2) it requires that you have a much higher pressure to fill the same amount of volume, which means that it would require a much more durable, and expensive cartridge. To whoever said they don't use it because of water reasons, is wrong. Compressors for paintball or scuba tanks can filter out water. Also fyi, CO2 in it's liquid state can be corrosive.
Air takes more space than liquid, so CO2 requires less space when it's a liquid in comparison to compressed air(N2/O2), although N2 and O2 can be liquid, but it requires immense pressure and cold temperatures.
With compressed air (N2/O2) it requires that you have a much higher pressure to fill the same amount of volume, which means that it would require a much more durable, and expensive cartridge. To whoever said they don't use it because of water reasons, is wrong. Compressors for paintball or scuba tanks can filter out water. Also fyi, CO2 in it's liquid state can be corrosive.
#70
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Claremont, CA
Posts: 898
Bikes: Trek 1500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts